[Karias]

I would still get the HD600 first it sounds leagues better than the m50 out of a phone.

I hate to disagree but my HD600 sounds kinda mushy out of my phone. It sounds almost completely different when properly amped and with a dac.

 

[audiojun]

Sure it will piss off m50 fan boys, but I don't care about them though.

To me it was way better and I did compare them both side to side with a phone. I used to own the m50 and my cousin owns the m50. Once I brought my headphone over without anything to drive it but a iPhone and surprised that the HD 600 beat the m50 and k7xx out of the same iPhone. On the next day my cousin came over to my house and he listened to my hd600 out my crack and bifrost mb and I blew his mind.

 

[UtopiaB]

Sure it will piss off m50 fan boys, but I don't care about them though.

To me it was way better and I did compare them both side to side with a phone. I used to own the m50 and my cousin owns the m50. Once I brought my headphone over without anything to drive it but a iPhone and surprised that the HD 600 beat the m50 and k7xx out of the same iPhone. On the next day my cousin came over to my house and he listened to my hd600 out my crack and bifrost mb and I blew his mind.

 
But even the Dr Dre Cans blow peoples' minds, but those people don't realize the HD600 is the premiere point man.
 
On another note, I don't understand all the people who say there's an issue with the treble in the HD600, where the hell do they bake up these notions?? FTR, there is no problem with the HD600 highs, i'm adamant, and I wonder how many times does it have to be said that the HD600 is very free of fatigue, which is a clear sign that the highs have been baked just right.

 

[DavidA]

I support your search for a set of cans that suits your tastes more, but a less fatiguing headphone does not exist. The HD600 does the relaxed sound better than anyone. If its highs hurt, you may need to go for a cheaper option that leaves out those frequencies altogether. Your sensitivity does not allow for their presence.

It was more the way that the highs are presented on the HD-600 that was the problem for me, and it was just on some songs.  I may get another one down the road but since my friend wanted to buy it and since she is just starting out it was a easy decision.
 

  I can't agree with that, there is more to sensitivity to sound than just sensitivity to a certain frequency response. The cause of the listening fatigue can be quite dependent on the person. Fatigue isn't always caused by peaks in the frequency response, sometimes it's something else about the sound. I've heard headphones far less fatiguing to me than the HD 600. There are people who have fatigue issues with the HD 600 and HD 650, I'm one of them and no it wasn't because of comfort or the system, but the headphones themselves. I'm someone who is extremely sensitive to listening fatigue. There are only a few headphones I would call completely fatigue free for me, the HD 600 isn't one of them nor is the HD 650. While sometimes fatigue can be caused by frequency response, it's not always the culprit. It can be certain types of distortion, grain, sound pressure, etc.

Right on the money, I have other headphones that are brighter (HD-700, HD-800, SR-009, etc) but the way that they present the highs does not bother me for some reason.
 
 

  I can totally understand and see how the HD600 can be fatiguing. I haven't had/heard a less-fatiguing headphone, but my headphone experience is very limited. While @ProtegeManiac noted that it has a very low treble peak, they did also mention the LCD-2. That's a headphone I can see being very low fatigue based on what I've read; to my ears they'd be good for prolonged sessions without overdoing the highs just due to them apparently having an overall warmer tone and being a bit more relaxed, yet without losing resolution.

It depends on which version of the LCD-2 you get but for me and my GF the biggest issue with any of the LCD line is the weight.  FWIW i have a 2f and its a touch brighter than my HD-650.

 

[DavidA]

Noob question here. Years ago I was looking at the HD 600 but for whatever reason I neede up buying some Audio Technical ATH M50X. They are okay but they've always hurt my ears after wearing them awhile.

Anyway, not to stray to far off, if I buy the HD 600, will I absolutely have to have an and put to drive them? It s my intention to eventually get an amp but hey, I'm married. I have to do these things in stages. If you all agree that they require an amp, what cans would you suggest that offer great sound without breaking the pocket book? $400-500 is about my limit for an initial purchase. Many thanks!

You don't have to have an amp to start, the HD-600 may not perform at their best but its not like it will be really bad.
 
If you don't want to deal with amps and such, as others have noted: HE-400i, PM3, X2, SRH-1840, EL8 open (just outside your budget)

 

[DavidA]

   
But even the Dr Dre Cans blow peoples' minds, but those people don't realize the HD600 is the premiere point man.
 
On another note, I don't understand all the people who say there's an issue with the treble in the HD600, where the hell do they bake up these notions?? FTR, there is no problem with the HD600 highs, i'm adamant, and I wonder how many times does it have to be said that the HD600 is very free of fatigue, which is a clear sign that the highs have been baked just right.

How can you know what I hear and what bothers me?  I'm not the only one who has a problem with how the highs are presented on the HD-600, a few other friends have also noticed it, put another way I don't have any problems with the highs of the HD-700 which is supposed to be even worse, I also love my SR-225e and RS2e, both of which many will consider fatiguing but they don't bother me or my GF.
 
Everyone hears different, have different tolerances to different frequencies, that's why there are so many different headphones out there.

 

[Midgetguy]

  How can you know what I hear and what bothers me?  I'm not the only one who has a problem with how the highs are presented on the HD-600, a few other friends have also noticed it, put another way I don't have any problems with the highs of the HD-700 which is supposed to be even worse, I also love my SR-225e and RS2e, both of which many will consider fatiguing but they don't bother me or my GF.
 
Everyone hears different, have different tolerances to different frequencies, that's why there are so many different headphones out there.

Seems like the HD700's "worse" treble just happens to be in a different band, or even if it's the same band, presented differently due to the difference in sound signature in the rest of the range. Because sometimes what's important isn't the raw response, but how it is in relation to the rest of the sound sig. I'll admit that I think I've had one, maybe 2 songs, where the treble was a bit sharp. 98% of the time, zero problems with the HD600, but there are a couple where it isn't quite so smooth; those songs work out better in headphones where the treble is a bit more tame.
 
Likewise, I listened to a Grado MS1 (obviously different from the ones you have, but still falls under what's described as the Grado sound) and I found it to be more fatiguing. I'm just more sensitive to the highs put out by Grados compared to those coming out of the HD600s, it's nothing unique or difficult to understand; my ears just aren't your ears and vice versa

 

[bracko]

  How can you know what I hear and what bothers me?  I'm not the only one who has a problem with how the highs are presented on the HD-600, a few other friends have also noticed it, put another way I don't have any problems with the highs of the HD-700 which is supposed to be even worse, I also love my SR-225e and RS2e, both of which many will consider fatiguing but they don't bother me or my GF.
 
Everyone hears different, have different tolerances to different frequencies, that's why there are so many different headphones out there.

I have also noticed that I have troubles with the treble of HD600 and HD650. I've never had problems with some typically "fatiguing" Beyer headphones like DT8080 or T90 for example. 

 

[wahsmoh]

Sure it will piss off m50 fan boys, but I don't care about them though.

To me it was way better and I did compare them both side to side with a phone. I used to own the m50 and my cousin owns the m50. Once I brought my headphone over without anything to drive it but a iPhone and surprised that the HD 600 beat the m50 and k7xx out of the same iPhone. On the next day my cousin came over to my house and he listened to my hd600 out my crack and bifrost mb and I blew his mind.

 
 

   
But even the Dr Dre Cans blow peoples' minds, but those people don't realize the HD600 is the premiere point man.
 
On another note, I don't understand all the people who say there's an issue with the treble in the HD600, where the hell do they bake up these notions?? FTR, there is no problem with the HD600 highs, i'm adamant, and I wonder how many times does it have to be said that the HD600 is very free of fatigue, which is a clear sign that the highs have been baked just right.

 
I've never had an issue with HD600 treble. I think the DT880 has more treble peak and less elevated midrange which can pronounce that peak. It enables great focus on separating the track, but doesn't sound as natural as the HD600 from mids to high frequencies. I prefer the sub-bass extension on the DT880 though over the HD600.
 
I think anyone who has issue with HD600 treble should first take a look at their source or DAC. With a good DAC the HD600 never fatigues. I don't own a single delta-sigma DAC on my desktop though. I have a Bifrost MB that takes second place to my 1994 Theta DS Pro progeny when it comes to redbook. Then I use my Chord Mojo pulse array FPGA DAC for mobile-fi (which beats most cheap off-the-shelf D/A converters including the $1000+ AK380 in measured performance).
 
The only delta-sigma DAC I own is the Fiio X3II which uses a CS4398 (one of the better delta-sigma DACs) and it still gets stomped on by the better sounding Theta and Chord Mojo for imaging and spacial cues in the "soundstage." Bifrost MB also has a great soundstage too but it sits in a void between the awesome and powerful Theta DAC in dynamics and drive.. and the neutral and very revealing Chord Mojo which has some of the best specced performance of any DAC under $1000.
 
I don't like to throw stones at delta-sigma DACs but any of the ones I have heard under my suggested price range have fallen short. I have heard a few that sounded pretty good (Lynx Hilo, Matrix X-Sabre, M2Tech Young) but they were out of my price range and at that price I would aim at other heavy hitters like the Yggdrasil or Gumby.

 

[DavidA]

  I have also noticed that I have troubles with the treble of HD600 and HD650. I've never had problems with some typically "fatiguing" Beyer headphones like DT8080 or T90 for example. 

How do you feel about the HE-560 treble compared to the HD-600/650?  I don't have any problems with the HE-560 and most would say its on the brighter side. 
 
The Beyer's I have are T1v1 and DT-990 premium and the highs on the T1 never bother me while the DT-990 can get harsh like the HD-600 with some songs
 
@wahsmoh, while I agree that most D-S DACs don't always sound that great there are some that are okay.  For me its not the DAC that is the problem since I use other headphones that many would consider have worst highs than the HD-600 but I don't find them to be a problem.

 

[wahsmoh]

  How do you feel about the HE-560 treble compared to the HD-600/650?  I don't have any problems with the HE-560 and most would say its on the brighter side. 
 
The Beyer's I have are T1v1 and DT-990 premium and the highs on the T1 never bother me while the DT-990 can get harsh like the HD-600 with some songs
 
@wahsmoh, while I agree that most D-S DACs don't always sound that great there are some that are okay.  For me its not the DAC that is the problem since I use other headphones that many would consider have worst highs than the HD-600 but I don't find them to be a problem.

I agree with you though. If you start looking at D-S DACs over $1500 there are some good ones out there. I think right now it is hard to find a DAC that could be more musical sounding than the Schiit Gumby or Audio-GD 19 anniversary.
 
That is $900 or $1200 depending on your choice and you have PCM redbook that sounds absolutely superb. I upgraded my Uberfrost to the MB so that was a no brainer, but I would really love to own a Gumby because when it is paired with a good balanced amp it is hard to think of another setup that I could dream more of.
 
Under $600 and the Chord Mojo really strikes a proper balanced sound. I wasn't a firm believer that it would pay off but it holds more value in that little card shaped case than one would think. I would recommend it over the Bifrost MB but that is out of preference and overall value (I upgaded to MB for $250)

 

[Liu Junyuan]

 
I agree with you though. If you start looking at D-S DACs over $1500 there are some good ones out there. I think right now it is hard to find a DAC that could be more musical sounding than the Schiit Gumby or Audio-GD 19 anniversary.
 
That is $900 or $1200 depending on your choice and you have PCM redbook that sounds absolutely superb. I upgraded my Uberfrost to the MB so that was a no brainer, but I would really love to own a Gumby because when it is paired with a good balanced amp it is hard to think of another setup that I could dream more of.
 
Under $600 and the Chord Mojo really strikes a proper balanced sound. I wasn't a firm believer that it would pay off but it holds more value in that little card shaped case than one would think. I would recommend it over the Bifrost MB but that is out of preference and overall value (I upgaded to MB for $250)

Not to sidetrack the thread, but there are plenty of decent D/S DACs. Schiit's implementation of the AK4490 is excellent, as is LH Labs' implementation of the Sabre chip in the GOV2, both of which are under $500. If I were going for a new multibit DAC, I would skip the Bimby and go straight for the Gumby, otherwise stick with the 4490/GOV2. 
 
Also, HD600's are awesome!

 

[bracko]

  How do you feel about the HE-560 treble compared to the HD-600/650?  I don't have any problems with the HE-560 and most would say its on the brighter side. 
 
The Beyer's I have are T1v1 and DT-990 premium and the highs on the T1 never bother me while the DT-990 can get harsh like the HD-600 with some songs.

HE-560 treble is fine. Hifiman headphones in general have very pleasant and smooth treble. I don't believe it is the amount of the treble or the "brightness" of a headphone that bothers me. It is the "quality" and the balance. T90 for example has this wide and high peak at 5-10 kHz, but that never bothered me.

 

[Midgetguy]

  HE-560 treble is fine. Hifiman headphones in general have very pleasant and smooth treble. I don't believe it is the amount of the treble or the "brightness" of a headphone that bothers me. It is the "quality" and the balance. T90 for example has this wide and high peak at 5-10 kHz, but that never bothered me.

Agreed on the HE-560 treble. To my ears, it is a slightly brighter can than the HD600.
 
And @DavidA, I think the HE-560 has a different kind of treble brightness than the HD600. But I'll admit that in my limited library, the few songs I have a problem with the treble are consistent between the HD600 and HE-560, though they sound like different treble issues. With the HE-560, it's what I'm thinking people usually refer to as treble brightness and with the HD600, it's a little different. But at the same time, I also have the problem (that I suspect you don't have

) of source file; they're usually the ones that are from indie artists. They're in lossless format, so I suspect the mastering is the issue anyway. Meh, nothing really too much to be complaining about for me though. And like you said, it's going to a good home; no downside to giving some nice sound quality to a friend

 

[DavidA]

  Agreed on the HE-560 treble. To my ears, it is a slightly brighter can than the HD600.
 
And @DavidA, I think the HE-560 has a different kind of treble brightness than the HD600. But I'll admit that in my limited library, the few songs I have a problem with the treble are consistent between the HD600 and HE-560, though they sound like different treble issues. With the HE-560, it's what I'm thinking people usually refer to as treble brightness and with the HD600, it's a little different. But at the same time, I also have the problem (that I suspect you don't have

) of source file; they're usually the ones that are from indie artists. They're in lossless format, so I suspect the mastering is the issue anyway. Meh, nothing really too much to be complaining about for me though. And like you said, it's going to a good home; no downside to giving some nice sound quality to a friend

I think you might be right that it could be the source files that is the problem