[rafaelo]

Hi, I’m looking for a XLR cable for my HD600 for use with a Violectric V222.

I live in the EU. Would this be a good choice?

https://www.audiocables.eu/products...5-hd565-hd545-balanced?variant=39809131741264

https://www.linsoul.com/products/tripowin-altura

I have this in 4.4 but there is also XLR version.

Funny because i want v222 because it has 4.4 balanced input (among other things) and i do not want to change my cables.

 

[Since1991]

I'm not sure how many people are aware of this release, but here's NITSCH JAR600.

https://nitschsound.com/products/jar600

 

[Fegefeuer]

Finally. The definite HD 600.

 

[Since1991]

Finally. The definite HD 600.

I see you have the JAR800, how do you like it? How much of an improvement is it from an HD800S?

 

[Philimon]

HD600 mod1:
- remove spidercage and spidercage foam
- intent was to reduce 3kHz (vocal shout) in relation to bass levels, result was basically that but not sure if issues may have cropped up due to this change in driver damping.

HD600 mod2:
- stuff grado pads into cups to reduce airflow thru baffle vents, but do not cover driver or driver magnet vent
- intent is same as mod1, similar results but more

Perhaps removing spidercage is unnecessary, perhaps too much bass. Not removing spidercage would also make mod completely reversible. Im not hearing any other compromises. Will try reinstalling spidercage using Damplifier Pro as adhesive and possible resonance mitigator.

 

[Philimon]

So far, sounds great.

I would guess that the driver is now damped harder than stock, so maybe improving bass distortion which is a Senn 6X0 weak point.

With HD650 I fully sealed the baffle, maybe the less extreme sealing with breathable foam is better somehow like less closed-in sounding. Hmmm

CEETEE is a great guy!

Until someone lends me JAR600 for comparison, I would bet that “mod2” above is of similar sound quality.

If you remove the spidercage then I recommend holding the magnet down with Damplifier Pro (being careful not to cover driver magnet vent or driver, etc) since its possible for the magnet to come loose without having the spidercage there to hold tight.

This particular Grado pad is the Geekria donut. Make sure the face-side is pointed out and the flat-side pointed towards driver so as to achieve better baffle vent seal.

“Mod2” is named so because its the second mod I tried with HD600. Im sure other mods are better but $550 better?

 

[Fegefeuer]

I see you have the JAR800, how do you like it? How much of an improvement is it from an HD800S?

I prefer any HD 800 to any 800S. Unless you favor trading the increased bass perception and the lessened peak for a less open sound, less bass articulation and less overall resolve in the upper treble. The peak can be a problem to some, sure, but fixing it through the HD800S was more of a "blunt device" approach and generally just to increase the price, margins and give the 800 driver a new shelf life.

The same applies to the JAR800 and the JAR800S. No JAR800S will ever sound as open and articulated as any JAR800, it will always be less open and have a lesser ceiling. However it will be a nice departure from the stock 800S and thus is still absolutely worth it.

So:

When you see how much of a departure the JAR800 is from the stock 800 you will never consider stock again.

Bass is even tighter and cleaner now but it will still not extend or rumble below like a HE1000SE. It will dig a bit deeper and cleaner down. That's just how it is and how it will be. Given that music generally lives above 40hz etc or lives in the mids if we wanna be overly philosophical, it's no loss for most genres. The same applies to the HD 600. Ananda and Arya will always batter it in bass, staging/imaging but they will never have its timbre, delicacy, mid tonality, mid to treble transition etc..
This is why the HD 600 is an eternal headphone.

Anyway....

The perception of bass is still increased, there's more punch to it or let's say "concentrated pressure", this is a symptom of less IMD. If you want more volume, go for the 800S but I strongly advise against it. There's no other gain.

Mid and treble are more linear now, the dips have been handled very well. This brings vocals for instance a bit closer but now with the added resolve and cleanliness (thanks to a better waveguide approach) they are absolutely haunting now. Now the stock has already still reference mids but the dips kinda held it back and many people still favored 600/650.

This is gone now. You may call it a Super HD 600 like a few other headphones have been called already (though never really fulfilled that role) but this time it really feels like it. Ironically it had to be another Sennheiser.

Staging and Imaging are a different animal now, this is very important. The HD 800's defuse staging is a mix of FR/dips, reflections, the distance to the driver bla bla bla.
Now if you look at the back fo the driver of stock 800 and the JAR approach you will see that it basically extends out, "guiding" the waves outside of it instead of filtering them out through a pancake. This is one aspect where the staging differs. There is no strong boundary now anymore as naturally the sound isn't "stopped" right at the end of the driver. It's fading out now, not blunted, not cut off. Sure, nobody will ever say his HD 800's stage cuts offs. It's only in the context of a comparison that you will notice it naturally.

Having handled the dips, reflections way beyond stock now, having vocals closer now the stage will appear (as a very broad term) smaller. When I read this at first without owning it, my morale kinda turned to STEADY like a low tier militia in Rome Total War when elephants approach your gates.

Owning the HE1000SE and HEKV2 however I kinda knew what to expect. In the end I prefer the lasersharp imaging of the HE1000SE to the diffuse big staging of the HEKv2 in most cases. As they differ in tonality and timbre none of them replace the other. Strengths and weaknesses as usual.

Back to the stage. It's less diffuse now, quite a bit sharper in placement, the borders are fading out. It gains depth (cues appear/disappear from/into a deeper space) and breathes better. This is the openness I mentioned before. It sounds more open now. Yes, kind hard to believe in the context of the famous HD 800 stage but remember the shortcomings in the HD800's FR which add to the perception.

Treble. Here is where finesse comes into play vs. a blunt approach. Handling the HD800 treble is probably the hardest part of modding.
Let's say you have a big box of blunt needles and some in there are gold while most are of iron, but you only want the gold ones. You dig into it with your hand and try to grab a lot of them in hopes of catching a few golds to select them out.

Imagine doing that with a way lower amount of iron and thus digging out much more gold with each grab. That's how the treble was approached and how it is now.
It's cleaner now, more linear, better extended. More digging out the good stuff. Not polished and detextured, not smoothed over or anything like that.
This is what I call maximizing the HD800's driver potential.

One other important note: The mods are never a fixed template. There's always some wiggle room for your personal preferences. The base will be defined by your personal HD800/HD800S model.

I might have missed a few more aspects but this isn't a review anyway. Maybe I should write one.

 

[bagwell359]

So far, sounds great.

Does this mean your post from a day earlier is void? Because it seemed your thoughts were more mixed.

I would guess that the driver is now damped harder than stock, so maybe improving bass distortion which is a Senn 6X0 weak point.

Slam and bass under 70 Hz is what most people find wanting w/ the 600 - and I don't disagree. But the timbre and speed are top notch IMO. Distortion comes when the bass is dynamic and played loud (heavy bass EQ just accelerates it). When I want loud/deep bass I go to speakers or my HE-6 SE. The 600 is not and cannot be modded to be a bass cannon. based on my mods on top of the CC mod - discussed below.

Until someone lends me JAR600 for comparison, I would bet that “mod2” above is of similar sound quality.

Cannot agree with this, until I hear it.

If you remove the spidercage then I recommend holding the magnet down with Damplifier Pro (being careful not to cover driver magnet vent or driver, etc) since its possible for the magnet to come loose without having the spidercage there to hold tight.

I got in the habit of modding headphones because while HFM drivers (such as the 500 and 6) are excellent (even better given when they came out), the other things - pads, rear screen, heanband, cables - were an afterthought. In comparison the 600 was a very carefully tuned product. The spider foam can't be put back so the CC mod is not reversible. I got the tuning more or less back to stock by using a piece of linen cut to fit under the spider, with a piece of the rear foam cut to fit into the center of the spider. Cutting off the spidercage is another step away from the OG tuning. Putting it back and/or gluing magnets seems like a difficult chore with perhaps less than optimum results to be expected.

This particular Grado pad is the Geekria donut. Make sure the face-side is pointed out and the flat-side pointed towards driver so as to achieve better baffle vent seal.

“Mod2” is named so because its the second mod I tried with HD600. Im sure other mods are better but $550 better?

Regarding the bass deficiency - the fundamental resonance of the driver is quite high. Unless you stiffen it by adding mass via a coating (which would maybe add 2-5 Hz - but do strange things to the mids/highs) it's simply not physically capable of delivering planar or Fostex 900 type bass.

PEQ is the answer to issues above 100 Hz.. Foams, fabric, rings, etc.when they do have an effect are too broad.

Going to XLR on my Rag proved that focus/tone could be improved in that way - for instance cymbal overtones were clearer, tighter. OTL tube amps offer some of that and a certain sweetining via more even order THD.

As I concluded before, if you use the 600 for timbral accuracy, and have other transducers that have bass more to your liking, don't do the CC mod. Haven't heard the JAR mod at all, so cannot opine on that, but seems worth trying at the least.

 

[bagwell359]

I prefer any HD 800 to any 800S. Unless you favor trading the increased bass perception and the lessened peak for a less open sound, less bass articulation and less overall resolve in the upper treble. The peak can be a problem to some, sure, but fixing it through the HD800S was more of a "blunt device" approach and generally just to increase the price, margins and give the 800 driver a new shelf life.

Yes, the 800S has a worse Q to make it seem like it has more bass. 800 does have that nasty spike, but an inline resistor, or 1 PEQ setting or the mod does away with that.

The same applies to the JAR800 and the JAR800S. No JAR800S will ever sound as open and articulated as any JAR800, it will always be less open and have a lesser ceiling. However it will be a nice departure from the stock 800S and thus is still absolutely worth it.

So:

When you see how much of a departure the JAR800 is from the stock 800 you will never consider stock again.

Bass is even tighter and cleaner now but it will still not extend or rumble below like a HE1000SE. It will dig a bit deeper and cleaner down. That's just how it is and how it will be.

Yes

Given that music generally lives above 40hz etc or lives in the mids if we wanna be overly philosophical, it's no loss for most genres. The same applies to the HD 600. Ananda and Arya will always batter it in bass, staging/imaging but they will never have its timbre, delicacy, mid tonality, mid to treble transition etc..
This is why the HD 600 is an eternal headphone.

EQ neccessary to get HFM planars to get near that tonality - on say the HE-500, HE-6 SE, and HEK Stealth - among others.

Anyway....

The perception of bass is still increased, there's more punch to it or let's say "concentrated pressure", this is a symptom of less IMD. If you want more volume, go for the 800S but I strongly advise against it. There's no other gain.

Yes, for sure.

Mid and treble are more linear now, the dips have been handled very well. This brings vocals for instance a bit closer but now with the added resolve and cleanliness (thanks to a better waveguide approach) they are absolutely haunting now. Now the stock has already still reference mids but the dips kinda held it back and many people still favored 600/650.

This is gone now. You may call it a Super HD 600 like a few other headphones have been called already (though never really fulfilled that role) but this time it really feels like it. Ironically it had to be another Sennheiser.

Staging and Imaging are a different animal now, this is very important. The HD 800's defuse staging is a mix of FR/dips, reflections, the distance to the driver bla bla bla.
Now if you look at the back fo the driver of stock 800 and the JAR approach you will see that it basically extends out, "guiding" the waves outside of it instead of filtering them out through a pancake. This is one aspect where the staging differs. There is no strong boundary now anymore as naturally the sound isn't "stopped" right at the end of the driver. It's fading out now, not blunted, not cut off. Sure, nobody will ever say his HD 800's stage cuts offs. It's only in the context of a comparison that you will notice it naturally.

Having handled the dips, reflections way beyond stock now, having vocals closer now the stage will appear (as a very broad term) smaller. When I read this at first without owning it, my morale kinda turned to STEADY like a low tier militia in Rome Total War when elephants approach your gates.

Cool historic reference. No seige material of the Cartheginians is what saved Rome from Hannibal...

Owning the HE1000SE and HEKV2 however I kinda knew what to expect. In the end I prefer the lasersharp imaging of the HE1000SE to the diffuse big staging of the HEKv2 in most cases. As they differ in tonality and timbre none of them replace the other. Strengths and weaknesses as usual.

Where do you put the HEK Stealth on that continum?

Back to the stage. It's less diffuse now, quite a bit sharper in placement, the borders are fading out. It gains depth (cues appear/disappear from/into a deeper space) and breathes better. This is the openness I mentioned before. It sounds more open now. Yes, kind hard to believe in the context of the famous HD 800 stage but remember the shortcomings in the HD800's FR which add to the perception.

Treble. Here is where finesse comes into play vs. a blunt approach. Handling the HD800 treble is probably the hardest part of modding.
Let's say you have a big box of blunt needles and some in there are gold while most are of iron, but you only want the gold ones. You dig into it with your hand and try to grab a lot of them in hopes of catching a few golds to select them out.

Imagine doing that with a way lower amount of iron and thus digging out much more gold with each grab. That's how the treble was approached and how it is now.
It's cleaner now, more linear, better extended. More digging out the good stuff. Not polished and detextured, not smoothed over or anything like that.
This is what I call maximizing the HD800's driver potential.

One other important note: The mods are never a fixed template. There's always some wiggle room for your personal preferences. The base will be defined by your personal HD800/HD800S model.

I might have missed a few more aspects but this isn't a review anyway. Maybe I should write one.

Certainly a good start.

 

[Philimon]

Does this mean your post from a day earlier is void? Because it seemed your thoughts were more mixed.

No. I was only pondering in first post that perhaps I went too far with increasing bass based on the measurements - I did not yet listen. In my second post my actual first impressions are positive, but still wonder if spider cage left alone is preferable since I think the added acoustic impedance damping is probably beneficial to reducing 6X0 bass distortion.

To be clear, in my first round of casual listening I did not find bass to be problematic. Later tests may eventually reveal issues for me such as when I tried stock HD600. However, I did prefer stock HD600 to stock HD650 when both using the same pads (new Sennhesier pads - 2023) and posted those impressions in HD650 thread.

Slam and bass under 70 Hz is what most people find wanting w/ the 600 - and I don't disagree. But the timbre and speed are top notch IMO. Distortion comes when the bass is dynamic and played loud (heavy bass EQ just accelerates it). When I want loud/deep bass I go to speakers or my HE-6 SE. The 600 is not and cannot be modded to be a bass cannon. based on my mods on top of the CC mod - discussed below.

I have come to appreciate headphones that cannot do everything well because an excess of riches allows me to maintain a collection of niche headphones.

HD600 is faster sounding. As for bass, I think the current gen 600 and 650 have similar quantity and extension. I would say the tonal difference between them is mainly from 2kHz and up where HD600 has a little more. Tone can have a huge effect on perceived technical qualities like speed, distortion, (micro)detail, and (micro)dynamics. Since I am modding both I can add some more opinion later that perhaps will judge speed differently from stock vs stock.

Cannot agree with this, until I hear it.

I wasn't definitive, I just said I would "bet". If I had the scratch I would bet $550 that in a dbabx that one is not definitively better than the other for most audiophiles. So many variables... And me modding my own HD600 to my preferences means it'll likely win if I were to dbabx.

Putting it back and/or gluing magnets seems like a difficult chore with perhaps less than optimum results to be expected.

Yes. I would advise others not to remove the spidercage. I would only do easily reversible mods otherwise youre bound to **** up your headphone and **** up your resale value.

Regarding the bass deficiency - the fundamental resonance of the driver is quite high. Unless you stiffen it by adding mass via a coating (which would maybe add 2-5 Hz - but do strange things to the mids/highs) it's simply not physically capable of delivering planar or Fostex 900 type bass.

I dont want to increase bass extension, I dont want to hear more distorted Senn bass. All I really want to do is reduce 3kHz. Why not EQ you say? That ruins the challenge. Besides, I feel bad that my fellow headphone fiends are paying $550 for a headphone mod, so maybe I can help by shedding a little light on why the JAR mods are probably simpler than they look. I and countless others have modded Sennheisers in the past, I dont understand what makes JAR worth $550 other than some visual mystical hardware which is the equivalent of sexy models for audiophiles. I think JAR is alluring to those with little headphone modding experience or to those with enough money to make price feel trivial.

PEQ is the answer to issues above 100 Hz.. Foams, fabric, rings, etc.when they do have an effect are too broad.

Modding schiit is difficult, time consuming, expensive, and regularly not worth the end results. Modding headphones has to be enjoyed as its own hobby to make worthwhile. As you described, mods are likely to have too broad an effect in attempting to address small tonal issues, better to just PEQ. However, PEQ has a learning curve too but I imagine the total investments is much cheaper than physical mods.

Going to XLR on my Rag proved that focus/tone could be improved in that way - for instance cymbal overtones were clearer, tighter. OTL tube amps offer some of that and a certain sweetining via more even order THD.

Nice. I would love a Ragnarok. Right now I am using HD600 from Jot2, XLR.

As I concluded before, if you use the 600 for timbral accuracy, and have other transducers that have bass more to your liking, don't do the CC mod. Haven't heard the JAR mod at all, so cannot opine on that, but seems worth trying at the least.

I will have to look for your CC mod posts, thanks. But like you said, seems worth trying. I just looked at CC's website and I cannot find their magnet ring mod parts. Did they stop selling?

 

[bagwell359]

HD600 is faster sounding. As for bass, I think the current gen 600 and 650 have similar quantity and extension. I would say the tonal difference between them is mainly from 2kHz and up where HD600 has a little more. Tone can have a huge effect on perceived technical qualities like speed, distortion, (micro)detail, and (micro)dynamics. Since I am modding both I can add some more opinion later that perhaps will judge speed differently from stock vs stock.

There is a mid bass rise in the 650 which makes them sound muddy/chesty - tubes don't help that

Yes. I would advise others not to remove the spidercage. I would only do easily reversible mods otherwise youre bound to **** up your headphone and **** up your resale value.

I dont want to increase bass extension, I dont want to hear more distorted Senn bass.

With the CC mod one has 4 foams and no foam as options. Three choices lead to a notable increase in bass, the other two in less. I thought you liked the bassiest choice - maybe that was someone else. I dislike all 5 options in the bass, and something is wrong and in several cases very wrong at 3k with those mods. A flimsy piece of foam (about .3 the density/thickness of the rear foam) makes a notable change in the sound.

All I really want to do is reduce 3kHz. Why not EQ you say? That ruins the challenge.

Materials that deal with particular issues, and don't overstep into others are very difficult to stumble on. Take the fuzzor mod of the HE-500, the stators are huge and create obvious issues of reflections/cancellations. Felt strips of up to .3 mil can be used, but, that will change the bass a trivial amount, better no stators or "stealth" stators. The felt is workable kludge for a serious issue.

If the strength of the 600 is its timbre, why mess with it. I tried multiple foams/fabrics/front tube vents/back side vents and more w/ and w/o the CC mod and all of them decreased the quality of the timbre IMO. I could take a 2 ply piece of toilet paper and make the 600 sound more like the 650 - but that's not good for me either.

Besides, I feel bad that my fellow headphone fiends are paying $550 for a headphone mod, so maybe I can help by shedding a little light on why the JAR mods are probably simpler than they look. I and countless others have modded Sennheisers in the past, I dont understand what makes JAR worth $550 other than some visual mystical hardware which is the equivalent of sexy models for audiophiles. I think JAR is alluring to those with little headphone modding experience or to those with enough money to make price feel trivial.

Making money w/ hopefully measurements/technology vs home brew - we both lean to the home brew side, except when the difference exceeds placebo/ego. @Fegefeuer who over time I have found to be very insightful was very high on the 800 JAR mod - so no conclusion from me

Modding schiit is difficult, time consuming, expensive, and regularly not worth the end results. Modding headphones has to be enjoyed as its own hobby to make worthwhile. As you described, mods are likely to have too broad an effect in attempting to address small tonal issues, better to just PEQ. However, PEQ has a learning curve too but I imagine the total investments is much cheaper than physical mods.

For sure

Nice. I would love a Ragnarok. Right now I am using HD600 from Jot2, XLR.

Not a bad combo

I will have to look for your CC mod posts, thanks. But like you said, seems worth trying. I just looked at CC's website and I cannot find their magnet ring mod parts. Did they stop selling?

Dunno - if it makes money, hard to believe.

 

[Philimon]

If the strength of the 600 is its timbre, why mess with it.

That’s a big “if”. Depends…

I think HD600 stock is not for me, but modded its become very interesting because of the improved timbre*.

Just need to reapply spidercage and I think HD600(modded) will become a favorite. Im curious to compare directly against my other headphones.

*timbre, I dont normally use that descriptor word. Too vague, too all encompassing.

 

[Luckyleo]

There is a mid bass rise in the 650 which makes them sound muddy/chesty - tubes don't help that



With the CC mod one has 4 foams and no foam as options. Three choices lead to a notable increase in bass, the other two in less. I thought you liked the bassiest choice - maybe that was someone else. I dislike all 5 options in the bass, and something is wrong and in several cases very wrong at 3k with those mods. A flimsy piece of foam (about .3 the density/thickness of the rear foam) makes a notable change in the sound.


Materials that deal with particular issues, and don't overstep into others are very difficult to stumble on. Take the fuzzor mod of the HE-500, the stators are huge and create obvious issues of reflections/cancellations. Felt strips of up to .3 mil can be used, but, that will change the bass a trivial amount, better no stators or "stealth" stators. The felt is workable kludge for a serious issue.

If the strength of the 600 is its timbre, why mess with it. I tried multiple foams/fabrics/front tube vents/back side vents and more w/ and w/o the CC mod and all of them decreased the quality of the timbre IMO. I could take a 2 ply piece of toilet paper and make the 600 sound more like the 650 - but that's not good for me either.

Making money w/ hopefully measurements/technology vs home brew - we both lean to the home brew side, except when the difference exceeds placebo/ego. @Fegefuerer who over time I have found to be very insightful was very high on the 800 JAR mod - so no conclusion from me

For sure


Not a bad combo

Dunno - if it makes money, hard to believe.

They don’t always have the kits in stock and they temporarily pull them from website. Write them an email or just check back every day or two

 

[bagwell359]

That’s a big “if”. Depends…

I think HD600 stock is not for me, but modded its become very interesting because of the improved timbre*.

Just need to reapply spidercage and I think HD600(modded) will become a favorite. Im curious to compare directly against my other headphones.

*timbre, I dont normally use that descriptor word. Too vague, too all encompassing.

Before the cc mod with just a tad of PEQ my stock 600 played solo and dual piano (top to bottom) better than any can I’ve heard outside of the Voce and Ralls, and possibly the Susvara - that’s what I mean by timbre. With my BHCs, the PEQ is less necessary to get that sort of sound.

I was able to recover mine after the CC debacle to very close to stock. No more mods to my 600. Chamber music, well recorded quartets, no death metal or Deep Purple - I can live with that.

 

[WoodyLuvr]

@Philimon @bagwell359 - really enjoying reading the exchange between you two; thank you!

I will have to look for your CC mod posts, thanks. But like you said, seems worth trying. I just looked at CC's website and I cannot find their magnet ring mod parts. Did they stop selling?

They don’t always have the kits in stock and they temporarily pull them from website. Write them an email or just check back every day or two

On 23 OCT 2023 Jason told me that in regard to the HD600 / HD650 CNC Copper Mass Loading Mod DIY Kit that: "They should be back in stock mid November."