[MixMasterMan]

If you are EQ'ing (applying correction) by ear only, then it is subjective, not objective. Without some instrumentation taking measurements of the FR of the output, you won't have objective, repeatable results each time. "Relative" simply means you have a reference (your main monitors) that you are comparing to the headphone's output you're trying to correct with EQ. The discussion is subjective vs objective, not subjective vs relative.

Then I guess you think that rtings.com frequency response curve of the PM-3 is "misleading" or just flat out wrong, since it shows a treble rise and excess treble up through 10kHz (except for a narrow dip around 4-6kHz)? Innerfidelity graph also shows this dip before rising quite a bit to around 9-10kHz.

http://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/oppo/pm-3

https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/OppoPM3SampleB.pdf

When I had the PM-3 my initial impression was that they sounded very neutral, maybe the most neutral of any headphone I heard. Then I started noticing thin vocals. I became convinced when I heard Metallica's Master of Puppets, a track I'm very familiar with. James Hetfield's vocals sounded way too thin. It wasn't his voice I was hearing. The broad treble accentuation could explain this. As far as soundstage goes, rtings.com measure that too. I think it sucks because it's closed back and the cups don't have much room inside, among possibly other factors. The FR is not primarily responsible for soundstage. It has an effect, but minor, compared other factors, like physical space in the cups, distance of driver from ears, closed vs open design, how well matched the drivers are, etc.

I didn't like the 598Cs myself, mostly due to to the hot mids, but also lack of clarity and "air."

First, I've never looked at a frequency graph reading of the PM-3 until just now (maybe I did once months ago, but can't remember). The innerfidelity graph is just about right. That's pretty much exactly how I hear the headphone in terms of FR. Its smooth (with a slight perceived bump around 100-150hz) up through to the treble, then slowly recedes at 2k, dips at around 4k, comes up a tiny bit between 6-9k (but still recessed), and then drops off a cliff at 10k. - Second... STOP referencing "rtings" ...lol - Their graph makes it look like there is a big treble spike/peak compared to the rest of the FR. Which is totally and truly not the case - Accented treble?! - I think most people experienced with audio that have heard the PM-3 would unanimously agree on the recessed treble. I'm a treble MANIAC (I always boost over 4-5k), and the PM-3 has NO air. So yes... it's misleading and perceptively "wrong". Third.... Don't EVER reference Master of Puppets again..lol. - That album sounds like it was recorded and mixed in a sewer. It's a classic, yes, but it has no top end, whatsoever. All the "classic" Metallica albums up until the black album each have big sonic problems (with "Ride the Lightning" sounding the worst). I think "Kill em All" is the most balanced of the first 4. - In general, most metal recordings don't have the dynamic or sonic fidelity I would need in order to test or grade sonic quality of headphones or whatever. There are plenty of awesome sounding metal albums, and I do use a few songs that I think are amazing sounding (in their own way, with a particular set of elements), but I usually use high quality Pop or Trance to test with.

Regarding EQ decisions on headphones and translation to main monitors, I'm talking about individual track decisions in a song project (like eq'ing the bass, guitar, vocal, snare drum, hi-hat, trumpet, etc).

 

[FastAndClean]

Bass-lite, no, but neither accentuated. The bass is there when needed. Forward in the upper-mids, treble smoothed out. To me, Mid-centric. Regardless, I like the 598s.

with fast pace music they have problem with speed in the mid to upper bass region, is starting to lag and that is their biggest problem for me, otherwise excellent mids, amazing for female vocals

 

[LazyListener]

So after taking a break from headphones and my 598s for a few months, and listening only to speakers, I listened to my 598s from my iphone 6 for the first time in a while today. This is what I noticed:

1. I found myself preferring a lower volume level than I had in the past, by a couple of notches using the side volume buttons.
2. The 598s had more bass than I remembered. They are a fairly bassy headphone for an open back.
3. Overall tonal balance still seemed warm with just a bit of treble sparkle. Mids seemed a bit (just slightly) recessed relative to bass and treble.
4. More detail than any of the speakers I've been auditioning. Still prefer the 598s over the speakers.
5. They're still just as enjoyable as I remember. Still my preferred sound signature.

A few days ago, I had a really quick listen with the 598s and my Fiio E10K. More neutral tonality than with the iphone, with the iphone providing more bass and a warmer tone.

 

[LazyListener]

First, I've never looked at a frequency graph reading of the PM-3 until just now (maybe I did once months ago, but can't remember). The innerfidelity graph is just about right. That's pretty much exactly how I hear the headphone in terms of FR. Its smooth (with a slight perceived bump around 100-150hz) up through to the treble, then slowly recedes at 2k, dips at around 4k, comes up a tiny bit between 6-9k (but still recessed), and then drops off a cliff at 10k. - Second... STOP referencing "rtings" ...lol - Their graph makes it look like there is a big treble spike/peak compared to the rest of the FR. Which is totally and truly not the case - Accented treble?! - I think most people experienced with audio that have heard the PM-3 would unanimously agree on the recessed treble. I'm a treble MANIAC (I always boost over 4-5k), and the PM-3 has NO air. So yes... it's misleading and perceptively "wrong". Third.... Don't EVER reference Master of Puppets again..lol. - That album sounds like it was recorded and mixed in a sewer. It's a classic, yes, but it has no top end, whatsoever. All the "classic" Metallica albums up until the black album each have big sonic problems (with "Ride the Lightning" sounding the worst). I think "Kill em All" is the most balanced of the first 4. - In general, most metal recordings don't have the dynamic or sonic fidelity I would need in order to test or grade sonic quality of headphones or whatever. There are plenty of awesome sounding metal albums, and I do use a few songs that I think are amazing sounding (in their own way, with a particular set of elements), but I usually use high quality Pop or Trance to test with.

Regarding EQ decisions on headphones and translation to main monitors, I'm talking about individual track decisions in a song project (like eq'ing the bass, guitar, vocal, snare drum, hi-hat, trumpet, etc).

Fair enough. Again, we are comparing our subjective hearing to objective measurements. Whenever we do that, we're going to have different opinions. Nothing wrong with that.

I will not STOP referencing rtings, just like I will not stop referencing innerfidelity, or anyone else. Most likely, rtings uses a different compensation curve than innerfidelity, and that's why the graphs look a bit different. I've seen that spike around 9-10 kHz on their FR curves on many, many headphones they've tested, but with the PM-3 it's broader, starting to spike around 6 kHz. Could also be variations in production units. Even Tyll at innerfidelity said the first pair he got was wonky in its response, so he got 2 more units to test. Could be something else. That doesn't mean rtings' measurements don't have any value or shouldn't be referenced.

Regardless of the mastering quality of Master of Puppets, the fact remains that it's a song I'm very familiar with, and I've never heard Hetfield's vocals sound so thin on other headphones (or on anything) in the past with that same poorly mastered song. The PM-3 was doing something to thin out his vocals. There were other recordings I heard where the vocals sounded too thin, but that one really stood out and I remember it specifically.

 

[Levanter]

The Sennheiser family out for a picnic

 

[Oubadah]

.

 

[FastAndClean]

Tried connecting HD598s to iPads (2017 "iPad" and an iPad Air 2) yesterday, and noticed weird behavior. Every time there was supposed to be a strong low frequency event, it sounded like the whole volume was turned down momentarily. My first thought was that it was some kind of protection for the speakers being applied to the phones jack (a software bug or something), but with my IEMs the issue is absent. Now I'm thinking that the iPads are just too weak to drive the 598s properly, but I still have doubts:

1) I don't know what an under-powered device driving (or failing to drive) headphones sounds like, because I've never encountered it before. I generally only use tiny efficient IEMs on mobile devices, and I run the 598s on an Essence STX 99% of the time. I would have expected distortion, but I hear none.
2) I thought the 598s had a reputation for being forgiving/easy to drive anyway.
3) Are the iPads really that weak?

hd598 have univen impedance curve, that is probably the reason

 

[GoodBoy]

Got my 598SR few days ago, discovered cosmetic defect orderded new pair. Guess what? New pair sounds different than first one! Still have both pairs before I have to send one back to amazon, so I'm doing some A-B testing.

First pair
- unbelievably huuuuge soundstage
- somewhat cold signature
- weak bass as if non-existent
- less fatiguing

New pair
- narrower soundstage, but still not bad, a little better than 598CS
- warm signature
- pleasant bass with some sub-bass, still not bass heavy, but this is enough for my taste
- more engaging

Love saoundstage in first pair, but prefer warmer tonality and better bass in replacemant unit. Not sure what to do, perhaps I should order another replacement

 

[espanarules]

All of these can be had for under $200...All are open... and the M560 are planar...
I am looking to get an open set that will allow me to enjoy Jazz/Rock occasional metal and techno...
M560== $189
DT 880==$199
HD 598==$169

...I know the HD 600 are $269 right now...but they are too far past my budget.
I listen to jazz from Hiromi-sonny clark- etc....rock alter bridge, Satriani, etc...

OR...If someone can recommend anything not listed, it would be appreciated.

 

[MixMasterMan]

All of these can be had for under $200...All are open... and the M560 are planar...
I am looking to get an open set that will allow me to enjoy Jazz/Rock occasional metal and techno...
M560== $189
DT 880==$199
HD 598==$169

...I know the HD 600 are $269 right now...but they are too far past my budget.
I listen to jazz from Hiromi-sonny clark- etc....rock alter bridge, Satriani, etc...

OR...If someone can recommend anything not listed, it would be appreciated.

If it HAS to be open back, then DT880. But if you don't mind the wait, you can score an HD6xx (Basically, an HD650) at Massdrop now, for $200. Do you prefer a warmer or brighter sound? - Warmer: HD650 - Brighter: DT880

Haven't heard the M560 in person. Only on the Z review sound demo (Which I didn't like. Sounded hazy with an artificial sound-stage).

 

[espanarules]

If it HAS to be open back, then DT880. But if you don't mind the wait, you can score an HD6xx (Basically, an HD650) at Massdrop now, for $200. Do you prefer a warmer or brighter sound? - Warmer: HD650 - Brighter: DT880

Haven't heard the M560 in person. Only on the Z review sound demo (Which I didn't like. Sounded hazy with an artificial sound-stage).

I would like to get into the open back...Why? Do you have a fav for my genres???

 

[LazyListener]

Tried connecting HD598s to iPads (2017 "iPad" and an iPad Air 2) yesterday, and noticed weird behavior. Every time there was supposed to be a strong low frequency event, it sounded like the whole volume was turned down momentarily. My first thought was that it was some kind of protection for the speakers being applied to the phones jack (a software bug or something), but with my IEMs the issue is absent. Now I'm thinking that the iPads are just too weak to drive the 598s properly, but I still have doubts:

1) I don't know what an under-powered device driving (or failing to drive) headphones sounds like, because I've never encountered it before. I generally only use tiny efficient IEMs on mobile devices, and I run the 598s on an Essence STX 99% of the time. I would have expected distortion, but I hear none.
2) I thought the 598s had a reputation for being forgiving/easy to drive anyway.
3) Are the iPads really that weak?

That's strange. Never tried with iPads, but never had an issue driving my 598s with my iphone 6.

Does it happen at all volume levels? With various types of songs/genres? What about while the iPad is plugged in to power?

All of these can be had for under $200...All are open... and the M560 are planar...
I am looking to get an open set that will allow me to enjoy Jazz/Rock occasional metal and techno...
M560== $189
DT 880==$199
HD 598==$169

...I know the HD 600 are $269 right now...but they are too far past my budget.
I listen to jazz from Hiromi-sonny clark- etc....rock alter bridge, Satriani, etc...

OR...If someone can recommend anything not listed, it would be appreciated.

I listen to those genres (rarely Jazz). Not familiar with M560. Had the DT 880 32 Ohm - not much bass, overhyped, but pleasant treble. My vote goes to 598 open back. May also want to check out DT 990 80 Ohm or higher (open, but more bass than DT 880). HD 650 (6xx) if you don't mind a warmer tone with subdued treble and the added expense of an amp (required for best sound).

 

[LazyListener]

Got my 598SR few days ago, discovered cosmetic defect orderded new pair. Guess what? New pair sounds different than first one! Still have both pairs before I have to send one back to amazon, so I'm doing some A-B testing.

First pair
- unbelievably huuuuge soundstage
- somewhat cold signature
- weak bass as if non-existent
- less fatiguing

New pair
- narrower soundstage, but still not bad, a little better than 598CS
- warm signature
- pleasant bass with some sub-bass, still not bass heavy, but this is enough for my taste
- more engaging

Love saoundstage in first pair, but prefer warmer tonality and better bass in replacemant unit. Not sure what to do, perhaps I should order another replacement

The 2nd pair sounds like the "correct" signature for the 598 open back. Bass should not be anywhere near non-existent unless you're a basshead.

I had a similar issue with the black 598 SE open back. It sounded very different than my ivory/original 598 open back. The SE's bass was very weak and it actually was fatiguing, where the Ivory is warm/bassy and never fatiguing. It didn't have any cosmetic defect, but did have creaky headband when flexed which the Ivory model did not. Soundstage between the 2 was similar however, possibly even better with the Ivory. Soundstage may be perceived as smaller when there's more bass/warmth in the signature. Others have said their SE sounded more like my Ivory, so there are probably some manufacturing/quality issues with some units.

 

[espanarules]

That's strange. Never tried with iPads, but never had an issue driving my 598s with my iphone 6.

Does it happen at all volume levels? With various types of songs/genres? What about while the iPad is plugged in to power?


I listen to those genres (rarely Jazz). Not familiar with M560. Had the DT 880 32 Ohm - not much bass, overhyped, but pleasant treble. My vote goes to 598 open back. May also want to check out DT 990 80 Ohm or higher (open, but more bass than DT 880). HD 650 (6xx) if you don't mind a warmer tone with subdued treble and the added expense of an amp (required for best sound).

Ok...thanks...

 

[GoodBoy]

The 2nd pair sounds like the "correct" signature for the 598 open back. Bass should not be anywhere near non-existent unless you're a basshead.

I had a similar issue with the black 598 SE open back. It sounded very different than my ivory/original 598 open back. The SE's bass was very weak and it actually was fatiguing, where the Ivory is warm/bassy and never fatiguing. It didn't have any cosmetic defect, but did have creaky headband when flexed which the Ivory model did not. Soundstage between the 2 was similar however, possibly even better with the Ivory. Soundstage may be perceived as smaller when there's more bass/warmth in the signature. Others have said their SE sounded more like my Ivory, so there are probably some manufacturing/quality issues with some units.

Right now I lean toward first pair. Second one seemed better initially, because it's lauder, but it's also boomy therefore more fatiguing. What's worse I've discovered it has more forward mids and a little harsh highs. I had to take them off after 30 minutes or significantly reduce volume. First pair is much more musical and relaxing to my ears. It appears less engaging when doing A-B tests, but if I listen to them solely for a few hours I no longer have this impression. Too bad these pair has cosmetic defect (indentation in a leather headband). Probaby I'll try to arrange one more replacement.
Also clamping in first pair is super strong and super loose in the second pair haha Oh well.... sennheiser china facilities QC sucks... I would've gladly paid 20$ more for product with "made in germany" sticker.