[gdhal]

@atomicbob measurements are posted a few pages back in this thread. He's got even more posted on a site I am not allowed to link to. The other was done by Marv, also on a site I cannot link due to HF rules. A quick Google search will turn them up though.

I'm very much aware. I've read measurement data from various sources and sites. atomicbob was kind enough to PM me additional info. However, he did not respond to my pointed question "Are you flat out disagreeing with the data amir has presented on his audioscience site? " Instead, like you, he offered data/rebuttal of his own. This is different than offering proof that Amir's measurements are flat out untrue.

Some additional unanswered questions:

Is it your opinion (or fact) that your Yggdrasil measurements corroborate/support Schiit manufacturer web site text/marketing claims?

Can the same measurement performance be found in significantly less expensive DACs?

How does the Yggdrasil measurements compare to other multibit DACs measurements in its price class?

 

[gdhal]

Indeed. If measurements were the end-all, be-all, I wouldn't own tube amps.

This is a valid point and I certainly agree that measurements are not the end-all, be-all. That said, for a DAC that is as favorable to the masses as the Yggdrasil, it does become somewhat puzzling, interesting, etc. that standard and basic measurements - supposedly the same of which are applied to any DAC - would be anything less than "perfect". Yes, what exactly is being measured can be debated, however, *if* (IMO) the same measurement criteria is applied to the yggdrasil as any other DAC, I would "think" it should perform as well if not better, irrespective of how favorable it sounds.

 

[atomicbob]

I'm very much aware. I've read measurement data from various sources and sites. atomicbob was kind enough to PM me additional info. However, he did not respond to my pointed question "Are you flat out disagreeing with the data amir has presented on his audioscience site? " Instead, like you, he offered data/rebuttal of his own. This is different than offering proof that Amir's measurements are flat out untrue.

Some additional unanswered questions:

Is it your opinion (or fact) that your Yggdrasil measurements corroborate/support Schiit manufacturer web site text/marketing claims?

Can the same measurement performance be found in significantly less expensive DACs?

How does the Yggdrasil measurements compare to other multibit DACs measurements in its price class?

Ok, I'm going to provide some additional insight here, reiterating part of the PM in question, for the benefit of the forum readers.

I run the acoustic research department at a major medical device company. As part of my department I have an ISO 9001 compliant acoustic lab. We are required to test our FDA / EMA regulated devices to stringent standards including but not limited to IEC60601, many UL, CSA, TUV, etc. regulations and AES17-2015 is one particular audio standard we utilize. Imagine that, calibrated equipment, standard methods, trained personnel, scrutinized by regulatory agencies from around the world.

I am quite familiar with maintaining NIST traceable calibrated equipment and making standards compliant measurements. My audio measurements are AES17-2015 compliant. If you find a deficiency in my posted measurements, please inform me. Be specific so I may address the deficiency.

Let me ask a question, what would it take to satisfy your request for proof? Be specific.

Evidence that Amir's measurements are at odds with many independent measurements appears to be insufficient for you.
This appears to be an open ended question in which there is great opportunity to work hard to supply an answer only to have it declared unsatisfactory. Hard work compared to easy forum dismissal, due to the open ended nature of the question without a specific metric against which to measure.

Do my measurements corroborate/support Schitt published specifications?
Please read post #1 here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/yggdrasil-technical-measurements.764787/
Please read carefully the THIRD paragraph. It would appear you haven't done the necessary homework, though the information has been there since Apr 30, 2015.

Therefore I request that you spend time comparing measurement data and answer the remaining two questions to your own satisfaction.

 

[the finisher]

@atomicbob Thought I'd put that 3rd paragraph here for emphasis.

Schiit has specifications for these measurements published on their website and in their operating instructions. In my measurements, my yggdrasil performed better than Schiit's conservative specifications in every single measurement. Every single one. Well done Schiit!

 

[bobsherman]

Ok, I'm going to provide some additional insight here, reiterating part of the PM in question, for the benefit of the forum readers.

I run the acoustic research department at a major medical device company. As part of my department I have an ISO 9001 compliant acoustic lab. We are required to test our FDA / EMA regulated devices to stringent standards including but not limited to IEC60601, many UL, CSA, TUV, etc. regulations and AES17-2015 is one particular audio standard we utilize. Imagine that, calibrated equipment, standard methods, trained personnel, scrutinized by regulatory agencies from around the world.

I am quite familiar with maintaining NIST traceable calibrated equipment and making standards compliant measurements. My audio measurements are AES17-2015 compliant. If you find a deficiency in my posted measurements, please inform me. Be specific so I may address the deficiency.

Let me ask a question, what would it take to satisfy your request for proof? Be specific.

Evidence that Amir's measurements are at odds with many independent measurements appears to be insufficient for you.
This appears to be an open ended question in which there is great opportunity to work hard to supply an answer only to have it declared unsatisfactory. Hard work compared to easy forum dismissal, due to the open ended nature of the question without a specific metric against which to measure.

Do my measurements corroborate/support Schitt published specifications?
Please read post #1 here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/yggdrasil-technical-measurements.764787/
Please read carefully the THIRD paragraph. It would appear you haven't done the necessary homework, though the information has been there since Apr 30, 2015.

Therefore I request that you spend time comparing measurement data and answer the remaining two questions to your own satisfaction.

Bob,

Everything you are sayng is fine, but there is one thing we must not forget, the amir is Gods gift to audio. It is difficult to see how he can make any testing mistakes since he even had to help AP with his new analyzer.

 

[LouS]

This is a valid point and I certainly agree that measurements are not the end-all, be-all. That said, for a DAC that is as favorable to the masses as the Yggdrasil, it does become somewhat puzzling, interesting, etc. that standard and basic measurements - supposedly the same of which are applied to any DAC - would be anything less than "perfect". Yes, what exactly is being measured can be debated, however, *if* (IMO) the same measurement criteria is applied to the yggdrasil as any other DAC, I would "think" it should perform as well if not better, irrespective of how favorable it sounds.

Hi gdhal,

Julian Hersch years back did measurements for Stereo Review magazine. His "measurements" motivated me to purchase some of the worst audio gear that I have ever owned.

I'm very much aware. I've read measurement data from various sources and sites. atomicbob was kind enough to PM me additional info. However, he did not respond to my pointed question "Are you flat out disagreeing with the data amir has presented on his audioscience site? " Instead, like you, he offered data/rebuttal of his own. This is different than offering proof that Amir's measurements are flat out untrue.

Some additional unanswered questions:

Is it your opinion (or fact) that your Yggdrasil measurements corroborate/support Schiit manufacturer web site text/marketing claims?

Can the same measurement performance be found in significantly less expensive DACs?

How does the Yggdrasil measurements compare to other multibit DACs measurements in its price class?

His tests flat out disagree with the test results which Amir allegedly obtained. That would strongly suggest that Amir either had a faulty sample, faulty test equipment, or somehow otherwise contaminated his test. Without being able to check Amir's sample, his test equipment, and observe him actually performing his "tests", which certainly appear to be pretty suspect, no one can flat out declair that Amir's results were this or that, but the overwhelming preponderance of the evidence is that Amir's tests contain errors.

Whether other DACs can or do measure as well or better do not change the fact that Schiit Audio's measurements are apparently conservative, and frankly whether it measures better, worse, or the same as this or that DAC does not move the needle with regards to Amir's results.

Frankly, the Yggdrasil is the first piece of audio gear that I have heard which allows me to listen to complex compositions, as in classical music, without experiencing listening fatigue, so honestly I couldn't muster up enough give a Schiit to much care how it measures. Now I am not saying that it was consistantly the source which was at issue in my system, but I can tell you that if you put garbage in, you most certainly are going to get garbage out! Anything wrong in your chain can mess up the entire system, and make listening a chore.

 

[Currawong]

It's really painfully simple: Amir has got the same results from the three different Yggys he has measured. The ONLY logical conclusion is that his results are the result of his test set-up. He has already shown that he is using parameters and even judgements about the results that are different to what other people are.

When people have pointed out the issues with his measurements, he has gone on to attack the credibility of everyone who criticised him, and claimed conspiracies involving the manufacturer. He even conspiracies involving me, because I started a new impressions thread so that people could read independent customer impressions of the Yggdrasil, including myself, as I was looking to buy the upgrade.

You all know I'm not a normally rude person online, but seriously, Amir needs to get his head out of his ass as it seems so far stuck up there right now he's going to vomit himself out.

 

[Alcophone]

It's really painfully simple: Amir has got the same results from the three different Yggys he has measured. The ONLY logical conclusion is that his results are the result of his test set-up. He has already shown that he is using parameters and even judgements about the results that are different to what other people are.

Well, we have lots of other products measured with the same set-up that do not show the same issues (some measure worse, some better), and no single Yggdrasil has yet been measured by both Amir and Jude/AtomicBob/anyone else who got good results with other Yggdrasils.
So I wouldn't say that's the only logical conclusion.
I truly don't know what it is that makes his measurements different. There are nasty theories in both camps. I'm losing hope that we'll ever find out for sure.

 

[LouS]

Well, we have lots of other products measured with the same set-up that do not show the same issues (some measure worse, some better), and no single Yggdrasil has yet been measured by both Amir and Jude/AtomicBob/anyone else who got good results with other Yggdrasils.

What?

So I wouldn't say that's the only logical conclusion.
I truly don't know what it is that makes his measurements different. There are nasty theories in both camps. I'm losing hope that we'll ever find out for sure.

Of course you'll never find out for sure about Amir, but it appears that he is the outlier, and frankly as a technician, and a logical thinker, that means that I toss out the outlier, one goofy result out of a multiplicity of good ones makes the outlier necessarily suspect. He's not going to rerun the tests with oversight from the others, so you are forced to go with the evidence, which points to Amir most likely doing something wrong intentionally or not we'll never know, nor do I much care. I have a DAC that I can listen to, and frankly I don't care what name is on it, or who measured what. Julian Hersch measured the Carver TX-11 and proclaimed it a miracle tuner. I bought one, it was junk, sent it in for a factory check, it had to be broken, Hersch proclaimed it nearly perfect, and they said it was fine. My Sansi TS-7, if memory serves, smoked it in real use. I have set up AM transmitters, so I do know what Hersch was claiming to measure, but he certainly screwed up! Measurements are only as good as the tester, their gear, and the methodology used. My only dog in this fight is truth as I couldn't care less about the Yggdrasils measurements. It sounds fantastic, so if it reads worse than a dog's anal oraphas I could not care less!

 

[Alcophone]

Well, we have lots of other products measured with the same set-up that do not show the same issues (some measure worse, some better), and no single Yggdrasil has yet been measured by both Amir and Jude/AtomicBob/anyone else who got good results with other Yggdrasils.

What?

Amir has measured lots of DACs. Only the three Schiit Yggdrasils show this particular linearity pattern. Some DACs from other manufacturers measure worse, some better. All with the same equipment. So assuming he's not manipulating his results, it's illogical to assume that his test setup somehow only affects the Schiit Yggdrasil badly (the other ones that measure really badly appear to be very cheap junk products, so it's not surprising).
Some of the Audioquest Niagara 1000 power conditioners will show inverted polarity on their outlets because there was a production glitch that Audioquest has since fixed. Similarly, it's possible that some number of Yggdrasils measure very differently than others. The only way to rule out that this is the case is to let people of both camps measure the exact same device. Amir's results of my Yggy look as bad as his other measurements of other Yggs. If Jude, or AtomicBob, measured mine as well, and got vastly better results, then we can rule out that it's a difference in the units that causes the difference in measurements. Until then it logically is a possibility, however remote it may be.

Otherwise, I mostly agree with you. My Yggdrasil sounded great to me. And it sounded better than my DX7s. Maybe my DX7s is a lemon, I don't know. But indeed I'm more inclined to believe that either Amir's measurements are indeed still somehow wrong, or that they are not super relevant. Based on his measurements, the DX7s should be the better DAC. Alas, it's not. So his measurements are not sufficient to make the best choice when buying a DAC.

 

[Currawong]

Well, we have lots of other products measured with the same set-up that

...have not been measured by the other people who measured the Yggdrasil. Regardless, with some of his measurements have clearly inconsistent parameters, such as using 1kHz impulses above -0dB (inducing high levels of unrealistic distortion) and the outright BS he has posted about people, I wouldn't be surprised if other people want nothing to do with him.

 

[gdhal]

Ok, I'm going to provide some additional insight here, reiterating part of the PM in question, for the benefit of the forum readers.

I run the acoustic research department at a major medical device company. As part of my department I have an ISO 9001 compliant acoustic lab. We are required to test our FDA / EMA regulated devices to stringent standards including but not limited to IEC60601, many UL, CSA, TUV, etc. regulations and AES17-2015 is one particular audio standard we utilize. Imagine that, calibrated equipment, standard methods, trained personnel, scrutinized by regulatory agencies from around the world.

I am quite familiar with maintaining NIST traceable calibrated equipment and making standards compliant measurements. My audio measurements are AES17-2015 compliant. If you find a deficiency in my posted measurements, please inform me. Be specific so I may address the deficiency.

Let me ask a question, what would it take to satisfy your request for proof? Be specific.

Evidence that Amir's measurements are at odds with many independent measurements appears to be insufficient for you.
This appears to be an open ended question in which there is great opportunity to work hard to supply an answer only to have it declared unsatisfactory. Hard work compared to easy forum dismissal, due to the open ended nature of the question without a specific metric against which to measure.

Do my measurements corroborate/support Schitt published specifications?
Please read post #1 here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/yggdrasil-technical-measurements.764787/
Please read carefully the THIRD paragraph. It would appear you haven't done the necessary homework, though the information has been there since Apr 30, 2015.

Therefore I request that you spend time comparing measurement data and answer the remaining two questions to your own satisfaction.

Hi atomicbob. I'm not disputing your credentials or your measurement findings. That said, if one keeps an open mind and reads Amir's review on audioscience, it is not so easy to simply dismiss his findings (without intentionally wanting to be ignorant) either. He does speak to your measurements too and offers reasonable (IMO) objection in support of his assertions. In other words, and IMO, if Amir is correct in his measurements, this does not necessarily make your measurements incorrect. But that goes both ways.

To the extent Amir has or may have an ax to grind with Schitt, the counter-argument to that is whether or not you have any affiliation and/or incentive with Schiit. I have read your comparison statements here https://www.head-fi.org/threads/yggdrasil-gungnir-mb-bifrost-mb-a-terse-ribald-comparison.785369/ Seems a bit over-the-top (exaggerated) in my view.

 

[johnjen]

ghdal.
My 2¢ for what its worth.

Anyone can claim to know that what they are doing and that the results they obtain as legitimate.
That doesn't make it so.

As has been noted, if several different series of measurements from different sources using different and even the same gear, all more or less agree, with one exception (and the differences of this one exception we are dealing with are glaring by comparison), then it is incumbent upon the odd man out to reconcile those differences and NOT proclaim they are right and EVERYBODY else is wrong.
That is the height of conceit.

Especially where experts who have credentials and who operate within the professional arena vs a 'non-expert' are concerned.

And most professionals simply won't lower their standards to accommodate poorly performed results as the results speak for themselves.
Put another way they aren't going to accuse someone of poor methodology as the results speak for themselves, assuming there is recognition of the nature and extent of those discrepancies in the 1st place.

Most folks are not trained nor equipped to discern this level of exactitude when using gear with this level of performance.
Not to mention not knowing how easy it is to generate results that are flawed.
Which is understandable and why metrology has such exacting standards and can take years to be proficient in that field.

And really it only takes a cursory examination of his verbiage to determine A has not only an agenda and a bias, and a know it all attitude, all of which add up to being a perfect example of the Peter Principle in action.
And his self proclaimed expertise simply doesn't match his performance results which is obvious enough and in multiple ways.

And as for 'proof' his results are faulty (or worse) that is a lose, lose, lose, proposition for all involved (well except for A) and any professional simply would not want to spend the time to engage in such unproductive endeavors.

I hope this provides some additional context.

JJ

 

[commtrd]

So this measurement thing is just going to get beat right to death? What difference does it make really? Do you guys who own one enjoy listening to it? If yes, carry on. If no, get something else. Simple. Peeps worry WAY TOO MUCH ABOUT WHAT SOMEONE ELSE THINKS. Stop it already.

 

[LouS]

Amir has measured lots of DACs. Only the three Schiit Yggdrasils show this particular linearity pattern. Some DACs from other manufacturers measure worse, some better. All with the same equipment. So assuming he's not manipulating his results, it's illogical to assume that his test setup somehow only affects the Schiit Yggdrasil badly (the other ones that measure really badly appear to be very cheap junk products, so it's not surprising).
Some of the Audioquest Niagara 1000 power conditioners will show inverted polarity on their outlets because there was a production glitch that Audioquest has since fixed. Similarly, it's possible that some number of Yggdrasils measure very differently than others. The only way to rule out that this is the case is to let people of both camps measure the exact same device. Amir's results of my Yggy look as bad as his other measurements of other Yggs. If Jude, or AtomicBob, measured mine as well, and got vastly better results, then we can rule out that it's a difference in the units that causes the difference in measurements. Until then it logically is a possibility, however remote it may be.

Otherwise, I mostly agree with you. My Yggdrasil sounded great to me. And it sounded better than my DX7s. Maybe my DX7s is a lemon, I don't know. But indeed I'm more inclined to believe that either Amir's measurements are indeed still somehow wrong, or that they are not super relevant. Based on his measurements, the DX7s should be the better DAC. Alas, it's not. So his measurements are not sufficient to make the best choice when buying a DAC.

Look, I am a technician, I really don't even want to know what he's doing, but when one, and only one person is obtaining poor results, I tend to smell a rat. I've set up tests before only to later realize that I set something up incorrectly. One can repeatedly do so as well, sometimes it takes someone with a fresh set of eyes to see what's amiss. Short of that, I believe that the evidence isn't looking good for Amir. If he and someone who had good measurements lived close enough, and if intellectu

Hi atomicbob. I'm not disputing your credentials or your measurement findings. That said, if one keeps an open mind and reads Amir's review on audioscience, it is not so easy to simply dismiss his findings (without intentionally wanting to be ignorant) either. He does speak to your measurements too and offers reasonable (IMO) objection in support of his assertions. In other words, and IMO, if Amir is correct in his measurements, this does not necessarily make your measurements incorrect. But that goes both ways.

To the extent Amir has or may have an ax to grind with Schitt, the counter-argument to that is whether or not you have any affiliation and/or incentive with Schiit. I have read your comparison statements here https://www.head-fi.org/threads/yggdrasil-gungnir-mb-bifrost-mb-a-terse-ribald-comparison.785369/ Seems a bit over-the-top (exaggerated) in my view.

It may be nice to live in Layla land, but I and others, have to use test equipment which is regularly checked against standards for accuracy. If an odd man out is getting bad results continuously while all others are getting good results, the odd man out is called an outlier and their results are ignored unless they can prove the verity of their assertion(s). That's the way it works! If you want to poop all over methods which have moved us forward ever since their adoption during the enlightenment, good for you, just don't expect to win over those who understand the necessity for those standards.