[dmitrys10]

I'm using roon to play my music. Does it perform such conversion on the fly FLAC-> PCM?

 

[Torq]

  I'm using roon to play my music. Does it perform such conversion on the fly FLAC-> PCM?

 
FLAC is just a container, but yes it'll play FLAC with Yggdrasil.
 
If you're using Roon (I do), it'll play both DSD and PCM content, automatically perform the necessary on-the-fly transcoding from DSD to PCM if your DAC doesn't have native DSD support.
 
The signal chain will show as "lossy", however.

 

[pdickerson]

ordered my DAC a week ago and it arrived Saturday.
Plugged it into my Stock Sonos connect using toslink and digital coax. Then from yggy to Prima Luna dialogue HP using 30 year old monster rca cable.

First song on my Deezer playlist was Allison Kraus WOW. Yes there is a difference. I just tried s Ayre Codex highly regarded and I hear very little difference. Not like with the yggy. There is music in that silver box.

It's now Monday yggy has been burning in for 48 hours. This is the real deal. I think I will hold off on doing the Sonos Mod to the Connect. After 48 hours it is this good. The yggy is happy with the PCM stream doing it magic. Can I really expect to hear any improvement to reduce the jitter coming out of the Sonos seems the YGGY is Cleaning that up.
If I did the upgrade what SQ Cani truly hear. Maybe it makes more sense to go roon mac mini later or another streaming device. Sonos interface is better than everything else I have seen except maybe Roon.

Shall I stay or shall I go...
Stay with Sonos or go to a better quality streamer. Will it really be any better than what I have right now?

 

[dglow]

  I see that there have been divided opinions in this thread on what the best input is.
 
I saw the posts from Me. Moffat explaining why USB is a problem.  It seems that the data is deconstructed and then reconstructed once again unlike SPDIF or AES, and this is not a great situation.
 
What I don't get is that when using a computer as a source the USB output will deconstruct the signal even if you are sending it to a converter like Yellowteck or any of the others.   So at the end doesn't the SPDIF or AES converter need to reconstruct that USB signal anyway and then do another process- which is to change the data to the new SPDIF or AES format?   That sounds like it would be worse.  In addition, the yggy has that USB Gen3 clock in the dac itself reclocking right at the source which none of the other inputs have.  Therefore the other inputs will have to live with any reflections which were generated from the cable when the signal was converted until it gets to the dac.
 
It would seem to me that when Mr. Moffat says AES and SPDIF are better than USB he means when sent from a CD transport- and not from a computer via USB via converter- a really long chain.
 
Does this make any sense- or am I wrong???

 
Hello, I'm a Yggy owner who has also read, with great interest, Mr. Moffat's posts regarding inputs. And no, you aren't wrong at all.
 
Any AES / SPDIF output method that traverses USB would be subject to the same shortcomings one imagines USB to have. The only way around this might be, theoretically, a PCI-based AES card. And even then the bits would still be subject to the same kind of 'reconstruction' process, as PCI-E is also a packetized serial bus. The only difference would be its route: via motherboard traces rather than a cable.
 
I use both direct USB connection and a USB-to-AES/EBU converter with the Yggy. The two have quite different sounds. For maximum detail and resolution it's USB hands down. If that level of resolution bothers you, the AES input (via my converter box at least) provides a less bright, but correspondingly less detailed, sound signature. Both appear to deliver equivalent low-end. And both sound far better than optical.
 
USB is technically capable of next-to-lossless delivery. Its error rate is astonishingly low, on the order of one error per month assuming continuous playback of 16/44 material. I'd say that's pretty good... at least, I've never been able to hear one of these errors myself.  
 
So: errors will not impact USB measurably. From what I understand the problems of reflections don't apply (unlike with, say, TOSLINK). And it appears that thanks to modern asynchronous USB implementations we can effectively consider jitter a thing of the past.
 
The factor by which I've found the audio quality of USB to vary widely is the software playback stack. By that I mean the layers of software – apps, operating system, even drivers – which sit between the bits of your FLAC and the bit-processing of your DAC. If you pipe music from, say, iTunes via USB to your DAC, then your digital audio is subject to one or more layers convolution, the most damaging of which is often the (Mac) OS's sample rate converter.
 
Comparing iTunes playback against direct-to-DAC playback is night and day – and far more of a difference, in my opinion, than USB vs. AES.

 

[comzee]

   
USB is technically capable of next-to-lossless delivery. Its error rate is astonishingly low, on the order of one error per month assuming continuous playback of 16/44 material. I'd say that's pretty good... at least, I've never been able to hear one of these errors myself.  
 

Agreed, to tack on another impression. Unfortunately Schiit decided to power the USB hub within the Yggdrasil with power from the USB. This can cause 2 things, #1 if your PC etc.. is delivering dirty power, #2 it creates the possibility of ground potential mismatches. If you galvanically isolate the USB power, I've found it does help. 

 

[Astral Abyss]

  Agreed, to tack on another impression. Unfortunately Schiit decided to power the USB hub within the Yggdrasil with power from the USB. This can cause 2 things, #1 if your PC etc.. is delivering dirty power, #2 it creates the possibility of ground potential mismatches. If you galvanically isolate the USB power, I've found it does help. 

 
I bought a Wyrd.  Problem solved.

 

[Joeybgood]

   
Hello, I'm a Yggy owner who has also read, with great interest, Mr. Moffat's posts regarding inputs. And no, you aren't wrong at all.
 
Any AES / SPDIF output method that traverses USB would be subject to the same shortcomings one imagines USB to have. The only way around this might be, theoretically, a PCI-based AES card. And even then the bits would still be subject to the same kind of 'reconstruction' process, as PCI-E is also a packetized serial bus. The only difference would be its route: via motherboard traces rather than a cable.
 
I use both direct USB connection and a USB-to-AES/EBU converter with the Yggy. The two have quite different sounds. For maximum detail and resolution it's USB hands down. If that level of resolution bothers you, the AES input (via my converter box at least) provides a less bright, but correspondingly less detailed, sound signature. Both appear to deliver equivalent low-end. And both sound far better than optical.
 
USB is technically capable of next-to-lossless delivery. Its error rate is astonishingly low, on the order of one error per month assuming continuous playback of 16/44 material. I'd say that's pretty good... at least, I've never been able to hear one of these errors myself.  
 
So: errors will not impact USB measurably. From what I understand the problems of reflections don't apply (unlike with, say, TOSLINK). And it appears that thanks to modern asynchronous USB implementations we can effectively consider jitter a thing of the past.
 
The factor by which I've found the audio quality of USB to vary widely is the software playback stack. By that I mean the layers of software – apps, operating system, even drivers – which sit between the bits of your FLAC and the bit-processing of your DAC. If you pipe music from, say, iTunes via USB to your DAC, then your digital audio is subject to one or more layers convolution, the most damaging of which is often the (Mac) OS's sample rate converter.
 
Comparing iTunes playback against direct-to-DAC playback is night and day – and far more of a difference, in my opinion, than USB vs. AES.

So regardless of the quality of your converter, it will not be able to deconstruct and reconstruct it well enough as to not lose details in the process? So  using the 'no sounds' option in your playback doesn't completely bypass the  convuluting of the operating system? I have a vintage Sonic Frontiers DAC so I have to use my YellowTec PUC 2 when using it and , obviously, want to achieve the best(and cleanest) path from my USB port to my DAC.

 

[dglow]

(apologies in advance to those familiar with the topic... nothing to see here – move along, move along)
 
Quote:

 

  The factor by which I've found the audio quality of USB to vary widely is the software playback stack. By that I mean the layers of software – apps, operating system, even drivers – which sit between the bits of your FLAC and the bit-processing of your DAC. If you pipe music from, say, iTunes via USB to your DAC, then your digital audio is subject to one or more layers convolution, the most damaging of which is often the (Mac) OS's sample rate converter.
 
Comparing iTunes playback against direct-to-DAC playback is night and day – and far more of a difference, in my opinion, than USB vs. AES.

So regardless of the quality of your converter, it will not be able to deconstruct and reconstruct it well enough as to not lose details in the process? So  using the 'no sounds' option in your playback doesn't completely bypass the  convuluting of the operating system? I have a vintage Sonic Frontiers DAC so I have to use my YellowTec PUC 2 when using it and , obviously, want to achieve the best(and cleanest) path from my USB port to my DAC.

 
Yes. If you aren't careful with how you feed a digital file to your converter or DAC then detail will be lost.
 
On a Mac this meant using "integer mode". Unfortunately Apple reworked the system in 10.7 and integer mode stopped working as a transparent delivery mechanism. Since then some playback systems (BitPerfect and JRiver) still offer something called integer mode, but playback is now subject to either the system's Sample Rate Converter or one supplied by the app itself. Pre-10.7, when running integer mode, the SRC wasn't in the in the pathway at all.
 
The goal is always a direct, transparent feed to the DAC. If your DAC supports the bit-depth and sample-rate of a file, then there is no need for a sample rate converter at all.
 
I'm not as familiar with Windows' audio system these days. I know similar problems can arise but that more options exist for achieving a direct, transparent feed, e.g. ASIO or kernel-streaming output with JRiver and FooBar2K. The only Mac app (I'm aware of) which can bypass the system's lowest levels is Audirvana+ running in "Direct Mode".
 
The difference is audible. Direct Mode sounds distinctly different from Apple's built-in SRC or the alternative iZotope included with Audirvana.

 

[Joeybgood]

   
Yes. If you aren't careful with how you feed a digital file to your converter or DAC then detail will be lost.
 
On a Mac this meant using "integer mode". Unfortunately Apple reworked the system in 10.7 and integer mode stopped working as a transparent delivery mechanism. Since then some playback systems (BitPerfect and JRiver) still offer something called integer mode, but playback is now subject to either the system's Sample Rate Converter or one supplied by the app itself. Pre-10.7, when running integer mode, the SRC wasn't in the in the pathway at all.
 
The goal is always a direct, transparent feed to the DAC. If your DAC supports the bit-depth and sample-rate of a file, then there is no need for a sample rate converter at all.
 
I'm not as familiar with Windows' audio system these days. I know similar problems can arise but that more options exist for achieving a direct, transparent feed, e.g. ASIO or kernel-streaming output with JRiver and FooBar2K. The only Mac app (I'm aware of) which can bypass the system's lowest levels is Audirvana+ running in "Direct Mode".
 
The difference is audible. Direct Mode sounds distinctly different from Apple's built-in SRC or the alternative iZotope included with Audirvana.

understood. Much tks!

 

[earnmyturns]

   
USB is technically capable of next-to-lossless delivery. Its error rate is astonishingly low, on the order of one error per month assuming continuous playback of 16/44 material. I'd say that's pretty good... at least, I've never been able to hear one of these errors myself.  
 
So: errors will not impact USB measurably. From what I understand the problems of reflections don't apply (unlike with, say, TOSLINK). And it appears that thanks to modern asynchronous USB implementations we can effectively consider jitter a thing of the past.
 
The factor by which I've found the audio quality of USB to vary widely is the software playback stack. By that I mean the layers of software – apps, operating system, even drivers – which sit between the bits of your FLAC and the bit-processing of your DAC. If you pipe music from, say, iTunes via USB to your DAC, then your digital audio is subject to one or more layers convolution, the most damaging of which is often the (Mac) OS's sample rate converter.
 
Comparing iTunes playback against direct-to-DAC playback is night and day – and far more of a difference, in my opinion, than USB vs. AES.

I agree with your conclusion that most failures of USB audio quality are likely from the stack of software junk (do people forget that software is full of bugs?) between their nice music bits at rest on a drive and the USB wire. I've read a lot of sad stories with PCs and Macs where people spend a lot of money on USB decrapifiers when they'd probably do better with a dedicated source that has a minimal software stack with realtime audio performance that just moves bits in a timely manner and nothing else. But there are a couple of potential hardware issues as well: 1) electrical noise from upstream switching power supplies and ground loops that travels through the USB wire; 2) jitter that may not be completely addressed by the USB receiver. I'm partial (just a very satisfied user) to Sonore sources, especially microRendu with a good power supply.

 

[sahmen]

And how do you play the music stored on your local drives or computers with the microRendu?

 

[dglow]

But there are a couple of potential hardware issues as well: 1) electrical noise from upstream switching power supplies and ground loops that travels through the USB wire; 2) jitter that may not be completely addressed by the USB receiver. I'm partial (just a very satisfied user) to Sonore sources, especially microRendu with a good power supply.

 
Good points. Avoiding ground loops should be a matter of sensible wiring, and PS noise over USB is often the fault of a poorly-designed PC. I would certainly agree that spending large sums on 'decrapification' is a waste of $$...even Schiit admits a good USB hub can serve the same purpose as a Wyrd. As for jitter, this is solved. Any modern DAC offers locking and re-clocking ability; for Sabre-based units this lives directly on the DAC chip.
 
I like the idea of dedicated audio streamers but fear losing flexibility in the software realm. I'd love to know how the microRendu working out. Can it work if you want your playback software to covert and stream DSD ISOs to a PCM-based DAC? What about running AudioUnit or VST plugins for headphone crossover or room correction?

 

[pdickerson]

Aglow,
From what you are saying about jitter then anyone that gets the Wyrd4sound mod to their Sonos Connect and then connects to a DAC is wasting their money?

 

[mttbsh]

Aglow,
From what you are saying about jitter then anyone that gets the Wyrd4sound mod to their Sonos Connect and then connects to a DAC is wasting their money?

If you look back on page 204 I asked roughly the same question, as I was looking to use the Sonos Connect as the source to my Yggy and wondered if the Wyrd4sound mod would bring the Connect up to the level of a high quality - or at least a decent streamer. The feedback I received was that I would be doing a disservice to the Yggy by using the jittery Sonos when there are so many higher quality sources out there that would tap the true potential of the Yggy.
 
Honestly, in a blind test I doubt I would be able to tell the sound quality differences between the two sources I currently use - a Mac Mini via a good quality USB cable to the Yggy or my cheap Sony CD player feeding the Yggy using an optical connection. They both sound great through the DAC. This makes me wonder if the reclocking done inside the Yggy cleans up the signal to the point where the source really doesn't make too big of a difference. More likely the answer is that neither of my current sources are very good and I really haven't yet heard what the Yggy can do when fed a really clean signal.

 

[pdickerson]

This makes me wonder if the reclocking done inside the Yggy cleans up the signal to the point where the source really doesn't make too big of a difference.

Have you ever hooked your Sonos back up to compare?
I take it you didn't try the Sonos mod?
Do you think you current interface is better than the Sonos? Schiit's official word is to reduce the signal path as much as possible, from what I get from my email to Schiit.
BTW- Thanks for replying I didn't see your previous post.



My system sounds so frigging good now it is amazing really.
Those Schiit guys know what they are doing.

The DACs/software are a part of the sound for sure. But there is a lot going on on those boards in Big Silver. I am never ever ever leaving from this spot on the sofa again. Well maybe not until the wife gets home and of course there is work. How can I ever feed this obsession otherwise.