Schiit Modi and Magni comparison to Bifrost and Asgard

[StanD]

   
Glad I could help! It wasn't a perfect test, but it made it pretty clear to me that there weren't huge differences at least
 
From what I've heard secondhand, you're probably more likely to benefit from a DAC upgrade than an amp, as people really seem to like the Vali (I haven't heard one yet, but it'll probably be my next purchase).

You're going to have to spend much more than that (Vali) to help the Economic Recovery. 

 

[-Bankai]

Hello, new around here. I am considering the M&M but along with this I will probably get AKG k712 pro headphones and HiVi Swan M10 speakers. Not sure when, as of yet. Anyways, with the M&M I will be going optical instead of USB. should i plug speakers into pc, or into the amp? I've been trying to read online about what pre-amps do, but it's mind boggling! Is this how I would hook up speakers to the amp, is by pre-amp outputs? if that IS the case, then I wouldn't mind getting the A2 to have that option. I'm also guessing the SQ from speakers would benefit from going this route.

 

[Defiant00]

Hello, new around here. I am considering the M&M but along with this I will probably get AKG k712 pro headphones and HiVi Swan M10 speakers. Not sure when, as of yet. Anyways, with the M&M I will be going optical instead of USB. should i plug speakers into pc, or into the amp? I've been trying to read online about what pre-amps do, but it's mind boggling! Is this how I would hook up speakers to the amp, is by pre-amp outputs? if that IS the case, then I wouldn't mind getting the A2 to have that option. I'm also guessing the SQ from speakers would benefit from going this route.

 
From what I can tell the M10 is a powered speaker system, so my recommendations are going to be assuming that that is the case.
 
A pre-amp is a separate component between the source (DAC, computer, iPod, etc.) and your main amplifier (in this case, the one built into the speakers). This is useful when your amp doesn't have a volume control of its own (or it isn't easy to reach or something), but as far as I'm aware that's the main point.
 
So, if you got the M&M and the M10 speakers then you'd probably want to hook the speakers directly up to the Modi (so yes, you'd need to switch the cables around whenever you wanted to listen to headphones through the Magni). You'd then use the volume control on the speakers.
 
Now, if you got the A2 instead then what you can do is have Modi to A2 all the time, and the speakers hooked up to the pre-amp outs. That way the A2's volume control affects the volume to the speakers (and it also means you'll need the A2 on to listen to them). I also believe the A2 mutes the pre-amp outs when a headphone is connected, so when you want to listen to headphones you don't have to do anything beyond plugging them in.
 
It is more versatile, but it is also $150 more. Personally I prefer the A2, but the M&M is quite a good stack as well.

 

[-Bankai]

main focus would be, what will take advantage of the schiit DAC?

anyways, will get the SYS regardless of the outcome. would be pretty cool to add another amp in the future, maybe like a tube amp with a nicely paired HP. the SYS would take care of that switch can also do A/B tests if i really wanted to get serious about it. anywho, thanks for the reply

 

[Suichan]

Hi all,
 
First off, just a quick headsup that I'm new to Head-Fi (first post!) and absolutely brand-spanking-new to the Audiophile world in general so apologies for any stupid questions etc while I figure out all the ins and outs of everything .
 
Summary - in short, I'm trying to figure out:
* If the Magni/Modi is "right" for me - whether it'd suit my headphones, setup, etc
* Whether I could/should pair the Magni amp with a higher-end DAC (such as Bifrost) instead - whether that would yield little return over the Modi, etc
* If there are other, better options for me out there.
 
All my main questions are at the bottom of the post, so scroll there for a quick list if you wish
 
So - a little more detail.
 
I'm actually in a weird place with music. I'm sure most of you have huge music collections, probably in FLAC or similar, likely loads of CDs and/or vinyl, and/or a large iTunes library etc. I'm sure most people have, tbh - but as I say, I'm in a slightly weird place right now. I didn't really get into music at all until I was in my early teens, and having had no real musical influence growing up, most of that was the typical top 40s stuff of the day - Britney Spears and Busted and all that kind of cheesy pop stuff!
 
As I got older I moved on / away from that music.. But due to my living situation and an ongoing lack of people around me listening to / recommending music, coupled with my focus in other areas, I never really picked up new ("new" new, or old new, if that makes any sense) bands, singers, genres, whatever. I dabbled a little in Dance/Trance/Electronic, and a bit of Pop/Rock stuff, but never really built a concrete music collection outside of a few tracks. Back in "the day" I had Tapes and CDs of the bands that I listened to but over time they dwindled, got lost, damaged or sold and eventually I ripped the last few (to not-especially-high-bitrate MP3 no less!) into digital format in an effort to go totally digital.
 
So that's where I'm actually currently at - just under 4 gigs of not-amazing MP3 and no real idea of where to go from here in terms of discovering new music that I may like. Sorry for the long ramble about all this, and it's really not relevant to this post at all, except to answer the question of my sources, or what music I currently listen to - at the moment, not much at all, really. I've actually started coming "back" to music in probably the wrong way - buying gear and trying to figure out the music itself after that!
 
However that's not the only thing making sounds - aside from the obvious Windows sounds I'm a bit of a gamer, so tend to use my various output options for gaming a fair bit (sometimes both at the same time, if the game soundtrack leaves something to be desired!). I'm not a competitive or hardcore gamer by any means so I don't really need or worry about things like super-accurate footstep locations etc. My game collection is pretty broad including FPS, RTS, MMORPG, RPG / Action RPG, and all the less-easy-to-categorise. Let me throw a few names out there, off the top of my head - Half Life (and derivatives - CS, TF, etc), Unreal Tournament, Mass Effect, Starcraft, WoW, Minecraft, Gone Home, FTL, etc etc etc (the list goes on but I don't have Steam open right now and don't want to bore anyone to tears!)
 
All my music playing happens through my computer - I don't have a CD player, turntable, radio, whatever. Just my PC - it's a laptop, so no fancy sound card, and as it happens the onboard sound chip crapped out on me so I grabbed an emergency £1 USB Chinese eBay sound card for my laptop, so I could at least hear something. And you know, for a super, super cheap little dongle that is literally falling apart and I had crammed in my IT bag for years, it's not terrible for the music that I currently have, although of course not ideal.
 
So, gear - back in the day, I used to just buy Sony or Panasonic circumaural headphones from Argos or similar, the £20-£30 typical cheap stuff, which always did the job for me on my low-fi players (Walkmen and such). More recently, I've always been a fan of Sennheiser, not really sure why and honestly it's probably something someone told me once or an impression I got from somewhere but it's led to me focussing on Senn stuff whenever I've bought headphones in the recent past.
 
Currently, I have a set of Sennheiser RS 180 (I love wireless as it lets me move around my desk/house without getting tangled, although I appreciate there is generally a respective price jump and quality drop because of this. Also, I had a set of Senn wireless headphones before (I forget the exact model), and the wireless range on those were truly supurb, whereas these drop out over much shorter distances (I assume due to something like the old ones using a mostly unused wireless frequency, whereas these ones are on the 2.4Ghz band, possibly? I hear that the range on the RS220 are even worse)) which I use more than my speakers, so up until recently they would have been my main transducers.
 
Once the sound card in my laptop crapped out and I had to get the new "sound card" (I use that term loosely!) I decided to also pick up a set of half-decent (for PC) speakers as well - Creative GigaWorks T40 - and those are now my main speakers. Currently my time spent on headphones/speakers is about 50/50.
 
For travel (iPod classic) I also picked up a set of Sennheiser ie8 earphones a few years back - that was my first serious purchase in the audio world and I have to say, they really are lovely - BUT - I find that ear canal 'phones cause my ears to get quite painful after an hour or so, and end up feeling bruised for quite a while after I use them, so they mostly get confined to their case unless I really have to be portable and have music.
 
Sennheiser HD 598 - I've had my eye on these for quite a while, constantly debating whether to start "small" or just say screw it and save up for the HD800, but sense and a realisation that my source, Amp, DAC, and everything else would screw me over for anything that high end made me see sense and I finally decided to take the plunge on the 598s a couple of weeks ago. They look beautiful, feel great on the head, but have mostly been sitting unused since I don't really have anything decent to drive them at the moment.
 
Sennheiser HD 380 - My job involves a small amount of video editing on another PC, nothing drastic but I had nothing to fit the bill at the time I bought these (about 6 months ago) for playing sound at all, so I plumped for these. Great sound isolation (which is mainly what I needed) but they clamp my head like they're trying to eat it, so I don't use them except for "work".
 
In terms of players, I have an iPod classic (mainly for work, but I do get to use it for personal stuff on occasion), and iPod nano (purely for fun and "out and about"), and of course my PC - I usually use Media Player Classic, with VLC for the occasional FLACs. I have a little experience of Winamp from years back but always happy to take new player recommendations .
 
 
 
So yeah, that's me at the moment. Obviously, I need some kind of Amp/DAC. When I first started doing research, FiiO popped up and were my #1 choice for a while, but after coming across a few threads over here a while back I saw people recommending Schiit, and I've been kinda hooked on the idea ever since.
 
I'm pretty certain that the amp, if Schiit, would have to be the Magni for one simple reason - it already gets REALLY FREAKING HOT in my room, and adding another 40-45° radiator to the mix (according to their FAQ) just isn't going to fly. Anything I buy needs to run cool, or my laptop is in danger of melting and my hair catching on fire, haha!
I can't find any indication on whether their DACs run hot as well (I'm a total newbie to Amps and DACs so forgive me if this is a stupid question), so if this is the case it looks like it'll have to be the Magni+Modi.
 
That said, I can't actually see anything saying the typical running temperature of either the Magni or Modi - can any owners out there chime in about this? Also, can any Bifrost owners chime in on the running temps of that device?
 
Aside from temperature, what I really need to figure out is:
 
* Will the Magni/Modi power the HD598s ok? What about my speakers?
* If not, would upgrading to the Bifrost help?
* Is it useful to pair the Bifrost with the Magni, or would there be no increase in power/performance/whatever without the equivalent jump in Amp upgrade?
* How would the Magni/Modi likely suit my needs (music/gaming)
* How would the Modi likely compare with the Bifrost for my needs (music/gaming)
* Are my headphones a terrible choice for my current sources (music) / needs (music/gaming)
* If so, which headphones would you recommend for my situation?
* If the Schiit stuff would not suit me, what Amp / DAC would you recommend for someone in my situation? I quite liked the idea of the FiiO stuff a while back also...
 
Bear in mind that my current audio sources are MP3s and games, although as I get into music I'm hoping to mostly build up a collection of FLACs/other lossless.
 
Also - budget. I don't have a fixed budget per se, but I'm certainly not made of money, and whilst I can dream of HD800s and a Ragnarok/Yggdrasil that sure ain't gonna happen any time soon. From my local UK distributor of Schiit (Electromod), the Magni/Modi and PYST cables (RCA & USB) all together comes to about £205 IIRC, which is a very nice price. I can certainly stretch to the Bifrost, but I don't want to waste money if I wouldn't see an improvement - after all, I'm no audiophile - yet!!
 
Apologies for the (probably unnecessarily) long post, thank you muchly for reading and I would appreciate any advice that I can get . Any questions welcome, and apologies for my noob-ness.
 
Thanks again!

 

[Defiant00]

Responses in bold.
 
Quote:

  <snip>
 
I'm pretty certain that the amp, if Schiit, would have to be the Magni for one simple reason - it already gets REALLY FREAKING HOT in my room, and adding another 40-45° radiator to the mix (according to their FAQ) just isn't going to fly. Anything I buy needs to run cool, or my laptop is in danger of melting and my hair catching on fire, haha!
I can't find any indication on whether their DACs run hot as well (I'm a total newbie to Amps and DACs so forgive me if this is a stupid question), so if this is the case it looks like it'll have to be the Magni+Modi.
 
That said, I can't actually see anything saying the typical running temperature of either the Magni or Modi - can any owners out there chime in about this? Also, can any Bifrost owners chime in on the running temps of that device?
 
Yeah, most of their amps run pretty hot except for the Magni, which typically only gets mildly warm. I don't think I've ever noticed the Modi or Bifrost warm up at all; typically DACs seem to run a lot cooler (at least Schiit's).
 
Aside from temperature, what I really need to figure out is:
 
* Will the Magni/Modi power the HD598s ok? What about my speakers?
More than enough power, but synergy is up to your ears (whether they sound good together, and to your preference). If your speakers are powered then you can plug them directly into the Modi, but otherwise, no.
 
* If not, would upgrading to the Bifrost help?
Bifrost will give you a little more power (it outputs 2v vs the Modi's 1.5v), but that won't make any real difference at any non-ear-destroying volume levels. I'd recommend Modi unless you want/need the other inputs or pre-outs.
 
* Is it useful to pair the Bifrost with the Magni, or would there be no increase in power/performance/whatever without the equivalent jump in Amp upgrade?
It is better, but now you're squarely into the subjective and value discussion. For me, only using a computer as a source, it was not worth $350 more over the Modi. I'd also mention that headphones make by far the biggest difference, so I wouldn't worry about a better DAC until you have your HD800 or similar.
 
* How would the Magni/Modi likely suit my needs (music/gaming)
They're excellent as an entry level DAC/Amp that just work, and will likely be a noticeable improvement over what you're currently using
 
* How would the Modi likely compare with the Bifrost for my needs (music/gaming)
As mentioned above, Bifrost is better, but it's hard to quantify how much. For me personally it wasn't worth the extra money when I was just using it through USB. The best thing to do (if possible) is get the Modi and then, after a while, go to a meet or two and listen to other setups with your headphones, since only you can answer whether something sounds noticeably better to your ears.
 
* Are my headphones a terrible choice for my current sources (music) / needs (music/gaming)
HD598s are good cans. Now if/when you get to the higher-end stuff I'd recommend taking a closer look at all the other options as well, but by that time hopefully you'll have a much better idea what you like, and maybe have gone to a meet or two, so you won't be buying blind.
 
* If so, which headphones would you recommend for my situation?
There are lots of good headphones, but you've got to start somewhere to figure out what type of sound you like. HD598 is a good place to start.
 
* If the Schiit stuff would not suit me, what Amp / DAC would you recommend for someone in my situation? I quite liked the idea of the FiiO stuff a while back also...
FiiO is good too; a lot of it depends on what sort of form factor you want (if you want something possibly portable). As with anything, check reviews before you buy, but there are definitely a number of good FiiO products that are quite popular here as well.
 
<snip>

 

[Suichan]

Thanks Defiant00 - lots of good info there and that echos what I was thinking re: the Magni/Modi. The FiiO stuff is nice but I've heard a lot of good things on this forum about Schiit so I think it's worth a go, especially for £200. I'll report back if I have any questions etc but for now just to say thank you for the advice and such . Oh, and love your avatar too

 

[Defiant00]

No problem, glad I could help; and if you do run into any further issues or questions I'm sure I (or someone else on the forum) will be able to help.

 

[StanD]

  No problem, glad I could help; and if you do run into any further issues or questions I'm sure I (or someone else on the forum) will be able to help.

Good answers. I will say that the Bifrost USB Gen 2 interface and drivers are superb. Will everyone hear much of a difference above a Modi, that depends on the person's experience and their headphones. Will the difference be earth shattering with a DAC, IMO nope, unless one bought a real loser which the Modi is not. I always say as you just said, "Headphones make the biggest difference." Some folks will spend thousands on a DAC, all I can say that it's good for the economy not one's wallet.
If you have a good PC setup getting quality audio from USB is not hard to achieve, One of my setups uses a small Windoze 8 laptop with touch screen to drive my Bifrost via USB and it is superb.
The difference between 2V and 1,5V is about 2.5 dB, not very large. In the case of the Magni, which has a voltage gain of 5 would suggest about 1.75W into a 32 Ohm set of cans. That's more than the Magni's 1.2 W spec so the Modi's output level shouldn't be  issue. So nobody's going to turn the volume knob all the way up as for most cans, 1.2 W is awfully loud, even if that's for the expectations for peak headroom.

 

[Destroysall]

Great review, Defiant. I have a question though, and I do hope for some help in this. I currently use Beyerdynamic DT 990/600 ohm headphones powered by the HiFiMAN EF2a and the FiiO E10. I wanted originally to sell or trade both in hopes for the Schiit Magni and Modi combo since I thought it would be an upgrade. Plus the Magni can properly power the DT990 whereas the EF2a cannot (it's highest ohm impedance rating is 300 ohms and it also has very hi-gain). However, I thought about jumping straight to the Bifrost (Non-USB - No uber upgrades) and perhaps even something like the Valhalla. Would you find this setup much more practical for my headphones over the Magni and Modi combo, or should I just opt for the Magni and Modi? I know the price gaps are large, but I'm not sure how to justify either combos.
 
Cheers,
Chris

 

[Defiant00]

  Great review, Defiant. I have a question though, and I do hope for some help in this. I currently use Beyerdynamic DT 990/600 ohm headphones powered by the HiFiMAN EF2a and the FiiO E10. I wanted originally to sell or trade both in hopes for the Schiit Magni and Modi combo since I thought it would be an upgrade. Plus the Magni can properly power the DT990 whereas the EF2a cannot (it's highest ohm impedance rating is 300 ohms and it also has very hi-gain). However, I thought about jumping straight to the Bifrost (Non-USB - No uber upgrades) and perhaps even something like the Valhalla. Would you find this setup much more practical for my headphones over the Magni and Modi combo, or should I just opt for the Magni and Modi? I know the price gaps are large, but I'm not sure how to justify either combos.
 
Cheers,
Chris

 
Unfortunately, I can make a few general statements but can't really answer those questions for you. The Magni and Modi should drive your DT990 just fine, although being the 600 ohm version I believe the Valhalla is also very highly regarded (but I haven't heard the Valhalla or your cans, so this is all second hand information). As far as Bifrost vs Modi; that's entirely up to you and your wallet. Yeah it's an improvement, but is it worth it? Personally, if there was another set of cans I also wanted to try I'd get a Modi + Headphones over a Bifrost. But at the same time, if an extra $250 isn't a big deal then sure, go ahead (as if you need my permission, but you get the idea).
 
If it was my money, if all my cans were high impedance (say, your DT990s and my HD600s) and I liked the idea of tubes, I'd probably go Valhalla 2 + Modi. I do think the Valhalla should make a pretty noticeable difference, but at least personally I don't immediately notice that big of a difference between DACs, so that's where my money would go.
 
Hope that helps!

 

[Destroysall]

  If it was my money, if all my cans were high impedance (say, your DT990s and my HD600s) and I liked the idea of tubes, I'd probably go Valhalla 2 + Modi. I do think the Valhalla should make a pretty noticeable difference, but at least personally I don't immediately notice that big of a difference between DACs, so that's where my money would go.

You make an excellent point here. I think I'll opt for this route. Thank you so much!

 

[Defiant00]

  You make an excellent point here. I think I'll opt for this route. Thank you so much!

 
No problem, I hope you enjoy them!

 

[trick]

Wow Great thread! I wish I had seen this before buying a new amp. People get so excited on here, its hard to not want more gear. Threads like these need to be posted on the front page so we can save some people's wallets.

 

[StanD]

  Wow Great thread! I wish I had seen this before buying a new amp. People get so excited on here, its hard to not want more gear. Threads like these need to be posted on the front page so we can save some people's wallets.

Audio gear is a dangerous journey for one's wallet, like buying a hot dog at Disney.