Schiit Mjolnir2 Tube Rolling Thread
May 18, 2017 at 8:12 PM Post #31 of 114
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1968/1969 Amperex Valvo CCa 6DJ8’s

Summary


Well, after all the listening, I have learned one thing: the Amperex sound is what I like. The Cca tubes sound terrific and is a slightly more sophisticated and more refined sibling compared to the Amperex 6922/730 PQ White Label D-getters. The Cca’s were more than twice the price of the D-getters. Yes, they delivered ever so slightly better sound, yet I will leave to each reader’s view if modest incremental sound is worth the extra money. Tubes aside, it is an interesting question: when we stop spending money on the diminishing returns of “ just a little bit better.”

Introduction

An apple does not fall too far from the tree: these tubes had a very similar general audio profile to the Amperex D-getters written about above. A warm middle voice, great base, rapid transient response and no higher frequency sharpness. Beautiful presentation of the music making it so easy to just get lost in the music, not the technical fine points of listening.

Overall, the CCa tubes offered slightly better separation and added a bit of air between the instruments. The sounds of the musician “at work” was a bit more distinct. Spatial queues were slightly better and more nuanced than the Amperex D-getters.

Here is the tricky question: Are they worth the >2x premium vs the Amperex D-getters? Was the extra refinement in the sound worthwhile? The answer is unique to every listener as is the condition of their wallet and their degree of audio tweaky-mania.

Having heard them, if I went back to my Amperex D-getters would I be unhappy? NOPE! Would I occasionally say to myself “.. heh, that sounds a tiny bit different..?” YUP… Would it ruin my listening to the less expensive tubes? Generally no, unless it was a for a piece I felt a deep connection with. For those with a greater focus on budget, my gut tells me you can get 99% of the sounds at less than half the price. For those that this little eccentric hobby is a happy sin for spending, the Cca tubes will please you and are incrementally better than the Amperex D-getters.

Specific Observations

Going back through my listening notes, let me offer a few observations (referenced to specific pieces on the listening play list that appears earlier in the post)


As a general note, the Cca tubes (as compared to the Amperex D-getters) were more quiet. Simply less background noise – I guess some would call this a black bottomless “silence” when there is no instrumental sound in a track. When an instrument begins to play, or singer sings, the sound rises smoothly out of the silence.


  • On “Sailing to Philadelphia,” Knopfler’s voice is warmly and vibrantly presented: smooth, clear, strong and well integrated into the instrumental sounds. The guitar string pluck sounds are beautifully presented. Versus the Amperex D-getters, the Cca tubes are an equal match in performance on this track.
  • Similarly, Marc Cohn’s vocals on “Silver Thunderbird” were presented by the Cca tubes equally compared to the Amperex D-getters. At approx. 2:20 into the track, a set of shakers carries the beat. In this situation, the Cca tubes outperform the Amperex D-getters, offering a slightly more realistic and airy sound.

  • On Jackson Brown’s “Load Out,” the female vocalist signing “Ooooohhhh wont you staaaaayyyy….” at 0:37, is not as warmly and strongly presented by the Cca’s. Here, the Amperex D-getters outperformered.

  • The piano key and chord strikes in George Winston’s “Longing/Love” were richly resonant and floating in space. The middle of the keyboard was warm with lots of clearly resolved and distinct overtones. The Cca tubes handled the spatial cues and the power of a well hammered piano key just as well as the Amperex D-getters did.

  • In Steely Dan’s “Reelin’ in the Years,” the Cca’s do a better job separating the highhat and cymbals and offer a slightly more realistic brassy sound.

  • Similarly, in Chumbawumba’s “Tubthumping,” there is a strangled/muted highhat deep in the background that pumps along with the base beat starting at 1:50. By 2:00 “.. don’t cry for me next door neighbor,” that highhat floats forward and is beautifully presented by the Cca’s – better than the Amperex D-getters by a goosebump or two.

  • George Winston’s “Riders on the Storm” was better presented by the Cca tubes. At the conclusion of the piece there are some beautiful resonances that ring out and hold, slowly fading, after the final key strikes. The Cca tubes present these magnificent tones powerfully and clearly. Those resonances seemed to move through space as if they had three dimensional shape, like streams of sound. The Amperex D-getters resented the same sounds, but not as viscerally.
What’s Next?

Heck if I know. Maybe just enjoy my music listening rather than focused critical listening. My local audio gear drug pusher convinced me to try a pair of iFi “NOS 6922’s” (GE 5670’s in a custom mount that rewires the heater pin assignment to match a 6DJ8/6922 pin assignment.) It has a capacitor filter on the filament to reduce modulated noise… I will get around to listening to them soon.

Thanks for reading.
 
May 18, 2017 at 8:23 PM Post #32 of 114
You can buy the 5670 to 6922 adapters on eBay and try a whole new realm of tubes...including the GE 5670 tubes at a much lower price than if purchased from iFi.
 
May 30, 2017 at 6:10 PM Post #34 of 114
@neoluddite, these continue to be well organized, detailed and useful notes. A great contribution.
 
May 30, 2017 at 6:30 PM Post #35 of 114
Jun 8, 2017 at 5:33 PM Post #39 of 114
What you think is it worth to try these new production Electro Harmonix tubes? Cost like 40€. Are they better than original Mj2 tubes?
 
Jun 8, 2017 at 6:23 PM Post #40 of 114
What you think is it worth to try these new production Electro Harmonix tubes? Cost like 40€. Are they better than original Mj2 tubes?

Better than OE? Sure...but not by much. I would get a pair of 5670 to 6922 adapters and try some good 5670 style tubes. Try the Western Electric 396A or General Electric 5670WA (5 Star, Triple Mica) tubes. I think you would pleasantly shocked at how good they sound compared to the cheap 6922 tubes.
 
Jun 8, 2017 at 6:24 PM Post #41 of 114
What you think is it worth to try these new production Electro Harmonix tubes? Cost like 40€. Are they better than original Mj2 tubes?


I have not tried the Electro Harmonix, so I cannot say. Perhaps others have experience to share.

What I am confident in saying is the MJ2 is a great amp to experiment with different tubes. I think you will find some tubes, other than the stock tubes, you will like. Tubes are like food: we all like different things, so experiment and enjoy.
 
Jun 13, 2017 at 10:38 AM Post #42 of 114
Thanks for this really helpful thread! A couple of questions: how dependent is tube choice on the headphone? (I am thinking about Ether Flows with MJ2). For the MJ2, Dan Clark of Mr. Speakers prefers the Phillips Miniwatt, but doesn't specify whether he means the E88cc or the E188cc? Any idea what the difference in sound would be between those two tubes? Finally, for the Amperex 6922 D-getter white labels and the CCa Valvo (both of which sound fantastic) what are the ballpark price points? Thanks!
 
Jun 15, 2017 at 9:27 PM Post #43 of 114
Thanks for this really helpful thread! A couple of questions: how dependent is tube choice on the headphone? (I am thinking about Ether Flows with MJ2). For the MJ2, Dan Clark of Mr. Speakers prefers the Phillips Miniwatt, but doesn't specify whether he means the E88cc or the E188cc? Any idea what the difference in sound would be between those two tubes? Finally, for the Amperex 6922 D-getter white labels and the CCa Valvo (both of which sound fantastic) what are the ballpark price points? Thanks!


Hi,

While I am not an expert, I suspect the interaction between the entire amp and the headphones is likely to have a greater impact on what you hear (or don't hear) than the variation attributable to various tubes in the same amplifier design. Put another way, a great pair of tubes will not take a rotten amp and make it sound great. A great pair of tubes will help you get the most from your specific amp, in the sound profile (warm and intimate vs trebly stadium type of sound) you dig. As for the difference between the E88cc and the E188cc, I think (?) the the E188cc is simply another way to describe a 7308 tube, which, if that is not too confusing, just the European name of an enhanced version of a 6922, supposedly where the two internal triodes are carefully matched and that the lifetimes are longer than "plain vanilla" 6922's. Please note I could be all wet on this. Suggest you do some web searching and perhaps take a look at Brent Jesse's page describing the differences in the type so tubes. Amps will behave very differently based not he impedance the headphones present to the amp output. Some cans are super efficient and do not make the amp work too hard; others (like <35 ohm) impedance) really force the amp to crank out the current to drive the relatively inefficient headphones. If you want to have a OTL (output-transformless) amp, then DO plan on focusing on higher efficiency headphones (OTL's (mostly) are not huge current pumps). The MJ2 can handle high and low efficiency headphones - mine are 25 ohm and the amp can deafen me.

As you search around, I will share my process - (1) figure out the style of music you like. Bright and brassy, trebly or more focused on the richness of human voice, or do strings do their thing for you? Lock in on a couple of tracks you like and feel you know well. Look for some tracks that have decent dynamic range. If you were to do a Google search for "Dynamic Range Database," you will find a link to a site dedicated to improved studio mastering for great dynamic range rather than just LOUD music. Great dynamic range lets you listen to how the amp and headphones (and DAC) all handle quiet and loud and transients. (2) Once you have your tunes in hand, find you local stereo shop and simply pick a demo amp/dac for test listening and then using that same amp and dac, cycle through a few different types of headphones. You will be amazed at the different sonic voices different headphones have. (3) Once you have a pair or two of cans you like, you can then stick to them as you try different amps. Amps will then add their own imprint to the sound. Some amps will take a bright pair of headphones and tame them, and others will turn them into screechy ear-drum piercing monstrosities. (4) Once you have found a a pair of headphones and amp you like (ahem, the MJ2 is pretty great at an attractive price point), then you can begin playing around with tubes. You will find the tubes do result in small sonic differences. It is those "fine differences," we like or dislike, the same way we react to different degrees of seasoning in our food. What works for you is great! yet it might not be for me.

Use you ears.. read stuff here.. don't believe any of it as "gospel," just opinions that you might find your personal experience disagrees with. Most of all, trust your own ears! And, Happy Listening.

Oh, you asked about the price points for the tubes. The Amperex 6922 D getters were around $300 a pair and the CPA's about twice that. Perhaps you can find them cheaper on EBay. I do not buy my tubes on Ebay simply because I do not have high trust in Ebay, overall.
 
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Jun 17, 2017 at 8:16 AM Post #44 of 114
Hi again.
Wow! What a helpful (and extremely generous) reply! I am really grateful! I have been messing around with a speaker set up for the past few years but I am pretty new to cans, so I am very glad for the primer! I am looking forward to getting into this and getting away from the limitations of my room acoustics. The MJ2 sounds like a great option! Thanks! Margot
 
Jun 19, 2017 at 5:34 PM Post #45 of 114
HI,

This my first post.... just wanted to tell you guys I just ordered Cca (ultra premium 6DJ8/6922) Siemens, 1960s vintage made in Germany, gold pins and E88CC / 6922 Philips SQ type / Amperex PQ type, white label type, HOLLAND made, gold pins. I get my mjo2 tomorrow. I have several other tubes as well, I have been getting the fever even before my stack is here.....
 

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