[Bleether]

Btw if these are the tubes that the seller anroide paranoide was selling they are probably 1965 but not vr0. Either way i dont buy from that seller as his test data never checks out
 

 
Yeah they were from that seller

 Now I don't feel good about my purchase... should I be worried?

 

[TK16]

I wouldn't, its probably close to 100% or so.

 

[kolkoo]

   
Yeah they were from that seller

 Now I don't feel good about my purchase... should I be worried?

 
Well that depends. Here's the fully story you draw your own conclusions. I will start by saying that your tubes will most likely play fine and you might not notice any problems whatsoever.
 
Actually the first tubes I started buying were from that seller (Amador) I bought several pairs. All I knew about tubes back then was 15mA = 100% and I saw those 22mA numbers baby and that nice price (150 euro) and I was like HOW ARE PEOPLE NOT BUYING THESE?!?! We talked in private buying through paypal and all that, he gave me a discount - life was good. However 2 of my pairs had crackle in them and 1 of them had almost white getter flashing which I ignored at the time.
 
Then I got a tube tester and saw that the pairs were not nearly as nicely matched and also nowhere near as advertised. As you can see most of his auctions are 22/22 mA or 24/24 mA always super tightly matched in current with (100%= 15) as explanation.
 
So I asked Amador hey how do you test your tubes?
 
He answered - and this is copy paste from my email :

 I took values some time ago, I think it must be: 150V -1,9 Vg 6,3Vf on a Neuberger rpm370, both tubes test around 120% of average new value.

 
Now there are several problems with that statement:
1) Plate voltage =150V, Grid voltage = -1.9V, and Heater voltage = 6.3V per Philips specification and graphics yields on average - 100%~=31mA. So the description was bullschiit.
2) If the description was bullschiit we have now established that 100% = 31mA, my tubes back then had 22mA per triode . Now 22/31 ~= 71% . In my email he told me they are around 120% of average new value, which was not 10, not 20, but 50% off. So I never bought from Amador again.
3) There was also the bullschiit story of how my '58 Mullard Mitcham wrinkle glass were lost in the mail when somehow the tracking number he gave me showed up as delivered in Spain instead of my country and even spanish post replied to my email telling me this tracking number definitely was delivered to Spain and my seller gave me a wrong one but Amador insisted that's the number for sure. He blamed the post and holidays (it was 20th of November when the tubes were sent, they usually arrived within a week from Spain to Bulgaria) on that so let's say that's legit.
 
Does any of this mean that your tubes will be bad ? - No. Your tubes will play fine and I hope you won't have any crackle and noise (and if you do you should definitely return them and not accept it like I did - of course give them time to burn in first as it might disappear ). BUT Amador is not selling cheap and he lied to me two(maybe three) times so I cannot forgive that. His tubes were not as tightly matched or strong as advertised. And the prices for them were as if they were.
 
 
So I suggest don't worry about it, there is a big chance I was just unlucky and his lies were just marketing bullschiit and his tubes are still good.
 
Also I would like to add that Anode current(Ia) doesn't always tell the full tale of tubes. 100% = 15 is the general average (at 90V plate and -1.2V grid voltage) for most tubes, russian tubes however have +- 5 mA on that brand new. So you can have tubes with 10mA be 100% strong, new and unused and tubes at 15mA that are 75% strong.  Philips tubes for example are +- 0.8mA. However even there I'm sure there are anomalies. If somebody is interested I can write a full post explaining what I've found out about tube testing and matching with reading and trying a ton of tubes on both my testers.
 
 
Anyway again I'll say that the tubes are probably going to be great sounding and you won't notice any problems (fingers crossed!) but the seller I don't trust (which is what I said before). Also I can assure you because these E188CC are red print that they are 1965s as there are no red print E188CC Valvos in the 70s (only white). But they are also not VR0 probably a slightly rubbed off VR6.
 
Sorry for the wall of text as you can see I'm passionate about tubes and people rolling on this forum and I want them to be happy

 

[Bleether]

Sorry for your bad experience with that vendor, but that was very insightful knowledge. I'm okay with the tubes just sounding good with no noise.

Are there differences in sound from a VR0 and VR6?

 

[kolkoo]

Sorry for your bad experience with that vendor, but that was very insightful knowledge. I'm okay with the tubes just sounding good with no noise.

Are there differences in sound from a VR0 and VR6?

Nah it's all about the year of production. Generally the E188CC production in Heerlen started with these bad boys http://www.tubemongerlib.com/gallery2/v/7308/Amperex+Philips+E188CC+1959+SQ+2-STAR+D-Getter+Tall+Bottle+Miniwatt+Label+VR0+49J+-+Heerlen+Holland.jpg.html . They were made in two series VR0/VR1, in 1959 - 1960. Then I believe they switched to round getter some time in 1960-1961. Then I have two tubes from 1961/1962 with codes VR3 and VR5. Then from what I've seen online VR6 was a long batch that lasted from 1963 to at least 1966. (I've seen red valvo E188CC with VR6 delta3XX and VR6 delta6XX).
 
I assume most of them would sound similar. Generally it's believed the older the better but who can tell Personally I can tell a difference between my Yellow Print Dario Miniwat E188CC http://www.tubemongerlib.com/gallery2/v/7308/Amperex+Philips+E188CC+1962+Halo+Getter+Dario+Miniwatt+Label+Same+Date+VR5+42E3+-+Heerlen+Holland.jpg.html and my later E188CCs that I've heard but this could be for many reasons.
 
I'll certainly keep an eye out for any D-Getter E188CC I'll tell you that

 

[TK16]

Sorry for your bad experience with that vendor, but that was very insightful knowledge. I'm okay with the tubes just sounding good with no noise.

Are there differences in sound from a VR0 and VR6?

Sorry bro did not know about that seller. Hopefully everything works out, that $235 could of gotten you several worry free sets from me. If your ever interested in the future shoot me a pm.

 

[kolkoo]

  Sorry bro did not know about that seller. Hopefully everything works out, that $235 could of gotten you several worry free sets from me. If your ever interested in the future shoot me a pm.

And also one lovely 7L4 D-Getter pair of 1959 goodness from me mwahaha!
 
Edit: Good news the crackling static from the weaker PW is gone! I mean it's still a bit lower testing but close to the other one and very well matched with it. Currently using this pair saving my really strong one until this dies (hopefully a long way ahead )

 

[youurayy]

Just curious - what non-NOS tubes (for Lyr/Lyr2, currently in production) are considered the best? And how do their sound quality compares to NOS? Would seem weird that we cannot replicate decades old technology, right? Or is there not enough commercial motivation.

 

[TK16]

Valvo CCa PW German auction.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-great-tested-CCa-Valvo-Pinched-Waist-D-Getter-E88CC-6922-yellow-labeled-/272409235349?hash=item3f6cdb0f95:g:McUAAOSwNRdX~MxL

 

[tvnosaint]

Amador < awesome. That's just my limited experience with his tubes. Some less than stellar pcc88 Siemens and e88cc mullards that could have been better for the cost.

 

[Bleether]

ughhh of course out of all the tubes i purchase i get the one seller with a supposed bad rep Hope the tubes are good though. His ratings on ebay were pretty good though?

 

[kolkoo]

  ughhh of course out of all the tubes i purchase i get the one seller with a supposed bad rep Hope the tubes are good though. His ratings on ebay were pretty good though?

 
Well Amador is usually kind, so if you complain he'll probably do pretty much anything to not get negative feedback and/or keep you as a client. I've also heard that ebay may remove negative feedback from some of the big sellers but I'm not sure Amador counts as such. (at least it is known that ebay has done it about ukranian/russian 6N23P sellers where negative feedback has been removed even though head-fiers have complained)
 
But generally ebay sales go like this:
 
1) Ebay sellers have a tester, a testing methodology, and sell their stuff as described according to those.
2) I have not seen an ebay seller that listens to the tubes for crackle, microphonics or volume mismatch
3) 99% (actual number may differ as I have not calculated it just basing it off of my experience ) of sellers do not test transconductance (Gm) or match voltage gain (Mu), but from what I've seen most of the time when Ia is matched the tubes are generally really close on Gm and Mu, but there's still some gamble. Unless they are testing on Amplitrex AT1000 (which a lot of US sellers do) now that tester is the bomb and checks everything but it costs a ton of money.
4) Some sellers even go as far as saying - "No returns - tubes test as described I can't tell you how they sound I'm selling them only electrically measured"
 
So basically buying on ebay is slightly random.
I've had tubes that were testing 18-20mA actually have a low transconductance and have problems like crackle as they are on their way out. This can be caused by the so called "loss of grid" or "tube rush" where some tubes do not care about their grid voltage so they either have crazy high current going (even at more negative grid voltage) which would come up on most emission testers as "really strong" or they just average/weak and don't change with grid voltage change. In reality the tube is almost dying and it doesn't respect the grid. These are the kinds of tubes that you hear "crackle". It's like somebody is squishing a piece of paper in one channel (or two). Sometimes I've seen crackle be caused by a tube that just won't stabilize in current until it's really warm or ever. The tube still has a lot of life left but the current fluctuates as it loses grid from time to time. Still works fine and sounds great.
 
I also have this Reflektor 6N23P SWGP Silver Shield 1974 that tests around 10mA but has higher transconductance than all other tubes I've ever measured on my tester and really high Mu (38 where max per spec is 40). And it is dead quiet, more than new and sounds the same as the same pair of tubes matched at 16mA and slightly lower transconductance and Mu.
 
These are the reasons that I sell my tubes here and not on ebay as I've gotten my tubes from ebay I've tested them in my lyr2, in both my testers, and I will be straight about their condition even if it means I can't resell them.
 
Like here -> http://www.head-fi.org/t/814890/matched-pairs-siemens-e88cc-6922-a-frame-getter-french-dario-miniwatt-rtc-la-radiotechnique-e188cc-7308 . Pair 1 and Pair 4 (both from Amador btw) had crackle, Pair 1 also had 1 triode significantly mismatched - 23% difference. Now you can't hear that mismatch unless you have golden ears. But I bought Pair 1 for 150 euro and Pair 4 for 100 euro. Pair 1 however was truly disappointing, mismatched triode, crackle that wasnt' quiet and didn't disappear with warmup - I wrote all that in the classified and some dude took it for 50$ . I told him several times the tube has crackle he said he only needed one, so he didn't care. Yeah I lost a ton of money but I was honest and that's all I cared about. Pair 4 was actually much better and again the dude that took it did not care about crackle as he did barely hear it in his Mjolnir2. I said ok as long as you know.
 
Other sellers on head-fi without testers have listened to the tubes they are selling on their Lyrs/Mjolnirs, etc. they will also tell you what you care about the most - does the tube sound good without noise, without microphonics, without crackle, how much time they've put on it and I believe that's perfectly enough to make a purchase, and it will mean a lot more than seeing an ebay auction of any pair tested X/X Y/Y mA .
 
Now that said I will still continue to buy on ebay, yeah I may lose some cash but some tubes you can't find on head-fi. Well there is a PW pair available for 999$ but I think I'll pass on that And most of the time I've been successful with my purchases (more than 70% of the time). But if you want 100% you are probably better seeking sellers around here.
 
P.S. I don't want this to sound like self-promotion of any kind and if it did, then please don't buy from me Just wanted to explain the whole ebay situation from my perspective. Also interested in other people's ebay experience
 
Edit: I'm also not saying that every head-fi seller is a saint I guess you can also see that here but at least on this thread there's been a bunch of resales and swaps and everyone has been very happy after.

 

[thecrow]

kolkoo have you noticed much difference between years of production of holland tubes?

And i believe you have some PW tubes. How much better have you found them over non PW tubes?

 

[kolkoo]

@kolkoo have you noticed much difference between years of production of holland tubes?

And i believe you have some PW tubes. How much better have you found them over non PW tubes?

It's hard to objectively say.
I've had PCC88 PW for some time now and they were great but they were not absolutely game changing, however I still preferred them to all of my other Heerlen tubes. But some of my other Heerlens could be more transparent and crisp.
 
Now I've had the E88CC Heerlens PW for a week (I've got two pairs one really strong the other one not that strong, but both very closely matched on Voltage Gain (Mu)) and I'm listening to the weaker pair and I'm just blown away. At least for me it seems that this is the dutch endgame, and even though I have the 1959 D-Getters (which are the successor of PWs) they are not as good for me as the PWs, they definitely changed something. The PWs have everything I wanted in a tube, they have so much detail, they have lovely highs and treble, the midrange is there and it's lush and lovely, the low end is also very much there, nothing is rude, nothing is harsh, and nothing is missing.
 
And they made both my LCD-2 rev.2 pre-fazor (considered a dark headphone) and my HD800 (considered a bright headphone) extremely enjoyable.
 
But at the end of the day if I have to objectively say I'm not sure the difference is worth the money unless you get a deal.
I won't pay 300$ for a single tube even if it came with a girl coming out of a cake holding the tube.
 
So I'm just hoping I can score some deals on ebay or somewhere else to get more of these. And at the end of the day the PCC88 PW is also to me a worthy tryout. But as I said it's not as clear and transparent as the E88CC version. And it makes sense also - put next to each other the tubes differ in shape and size so it makes sense they had different construction and different sound. They also might differ in what's inside.
 
As always YMMV.

 

[Bleether]

I appreciate all of your insight Kolkoo! I'm not too obsessed about the testing results being 100% at this point, though that would be awesome. As long as the tube has no noise, like he stated on his listing I'd be a happy guy.
 
I Kind of want to send you the tube for testing just to see what the tube really tests at.