[ThurstonX]

 
Ah I see, but I don't feel like paying extra 150$ for USB when SPDIF works great for me. Would there even be notable difference ? Who knows.
 
Btw nice read : http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up/690#post_10441924

 
Only one to find out

  I thought I detected a difference going from USB to the coax Out from my M-Audio card into the Bifrost, but I'd need to redo that comparison with the HE-560s.  IF there was a difference, it was damn subtle.
 
Thanks for the link to Chapter 11.  I'm still on Chapter 1 (keep getting distracted with life and headphones), but I was happy to skip ahead.  Good stuff, and Jason's an entertaining writer.  I can pictured Mike Moffat's Eureka! moment when he hit on upgradability.
 
This is the key statement from Chapter 11, and why I won't be getting a Gustard:

"And today, with the new CM6631A, I’m finally totally happy with USB. In fact, I use it most of the time at home."
 
YMMV, of course.

 

[ThurstonX]

$369 first gen Lyr from Amazon Prime:
 
http://www.amazon.com/Schiit-SCH-03-Lyr-Headphone-Amplifier/dp/B004T335BK
 
$90 cheaper than the Lyr 2.

 

[rb2013]

   
Ah I see, but I don't feel like paying extra 150$ for USB when SPDIF works great for me. Would there even be notable difference ? Who knows.
 
Btw nice read : http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up/690#post_10441924

Very good question!  As I've mentioned many times before - audio is additive and subtractive.  What I mean is you don't know if something sounds better until you hear it.  But when you switchback to what you originally were using, if it sounds worse then you know you've made progress.  That's why I roll 5-6 of almost everything in my system before settling on one - speakers, Headphones, cables, DACs, head amps, amps, phono cartridges, USB interfaces... And keep coming back to parts of my system if I find something promising.
 
In the case of the Gustard U12 - it's a major leap forward!  
 
Thanks for the link to Jason's comments - I agree with him whole heartily.  Except I take it further - why limit your self to just Schiit USB boards - go separate.  This way you can take advantage of any great inexpensive implementation.  At $155 the Gustard U12 is a giant killer!
 

Why should you believe us? Unlike other firms, we have no dog in this fight--we don't have a team of engineers spending 50 person-years developing proprietary USB tech, we're not selling an expensive USB solution or trying to license our technology--so we don't really care if you use our USB or not. That's one of the reasons we waited until there was a commercially available solution for USB 2.0--the CMedia CM6631 input receiver. Now, real high-speed async USB doesn't have to be costly, and we can provide great performance on the USB side. For USB, that is. 
 
And, consider this: when those expensive, embedded USB solutions in other super-expensive DACs have fallen by the wayside for USB 3.0 or Thunderbolt or I2S (or whatever's next), you just swap out a card on your Bifrost, and you're ready for whatever future tech there is.

 

 

[Flisker]

   
Only one to find out

  I thought I detected a difference going from USB to the coax Out from my M-Audio card into the Bifrost, but I'd need to redo that comparison with the HE-560s.  IF there was a difference, it was damn subtle.
 
Thanks for the link to Chapter 11.  I'm still on Chapter 1 (keep getting distracted with life and headphones), but I was happy to skip ahead.  Good stuff, and Jason's an entertaining writer.  I can pictured Mike Moffat's Eureka! moment when he hit on upgradability.
 
This is the key statement from Chapter 11, and why I won't be getting a Gustard:

"And today, with the new CM6631A, I’m finally totally happy with USB. In fact, I use it most of the time at home."
 
YMMV, of course.

 
I also think that if there is difference it probably won't even be worth trying to do super critical listening and obsessing about it.
 
Your welcome about the link, was really nice read for me too
 

  Very good question!  As I've mentioned many times before - audio is additive and subtractive.  What I mean is you don't know if something sounds better until you hear it.  But when you switchback to what you originally were using, if it sounds worse then you know you've made progress.  That's why I roll 5-6 of almost everything in my system before settling on one - speakers, Headphones, cables, DACs, head amps, amps, phono cartridges, USB interfaces... And keep coming back to parts of my system if I find something promising.
 
In the case of the Gustard U12 - it's a major leap forward!  
 
Thanks for the link to Jason's comments - I agree with him whole heartily.  Except I take it further - why limit your self to just Schiit USB boards - go separate.  This way you can take advantage of any great inexpensive implementation.  At $155 the Gustard U12 is a giant killer!
 

 
It does make sense, maybe I'll give Gustard a shot someday in future  
 
edit: checking it right know and I'am not sure how does it even work

 

[rb2013]

   
Only one to find out

  I thought I detected a difference going from USB to the coax Out from my M-Audio card into the Bifrost, but I'd need to redo that comparison with the HE-560s.  IF there was a difference, it was damn subtle.
 
Thanks for the link to Chapter 11.  I'm still on Chapter 1 (keep getting distracted with life and headphones), but I was happy to skip ahead.  Good stuff, and Jason's an entertaining writer.  I can pictured Mike Moffat's Eureka! moment when he hit on upgradability.
 
This is the key statement from Chapter 11, and why I won't be getting a Gustard:

"And today, with the new CM6631A, I’m finally totally happy with USB. In fact, I use it most of the time at home."
 
YMMV, of course.

Well not to get to far from the Lyr tube rolling thing - there are issues with the CM6631A. See http://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2013/04/11/diyinhk-xmos-usb-the-dxio/
 
About getting a Gustard that's up to everyone of course.  I don't post about it as a recommendation for everyone to go out and buy it - just posting my very favorable experience (and others on the Gustard U12 thread).  But spending $2000 on tubes and feeding them a weak up source makes no sense to me.  But to each his own.
 
I respect Jason - but he upgrades his products.  And the Gen 1 board was inferior - he even admits that.  So why would he put our an inferior product?  Jason is entertaining and he certainly has a definite attitude - but I know many very skilled audio Engineers who would disagree with him and Moffet on certain design issues.

 

[rb2013]

   
I also think that if there is difference it probably won't even be worth trying to do super critical listening and obsessing about it.
 
Your welcome about the link, was really nice read for me too
 
 
It does make sense, maybe I'll give Gustard a shot someday in future  

Super critical listening...obsessing about it! LOL You got me pegged!  

 Like many on this and other forums!  Only I've been 'obsessing' for 25 yrs on audio.  But I do listen to music!  About 10 hrs a day - mostly background while working.  Great sound means a lot to me.
 
But I could of stayed with my original Radioshack receiver and Koss headphones - glad I didn't.  BTW they still makes these - $91
 
We can pick this up over on the other thread - sorry for the diversion.
 

 
Now back to your regularly scheduled program - date coding $700 1957 tubes... 

 

 

[ThurstonX]

  Well not to get to far from the Lyr tube rolling thing - there are issues with the CM6631A. See http://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2013/04/11/diyinhk-xmos-usb-the-dxio/
 
About getting a Gustard that's up to everyone of course.  I don't post about it as a recommendation for everyone to go out and buy it - just posting my very favorable experience (and others on the Gustard U12 thread).  But spending $2000 on tubes and feeding them a weak up source makes no sense to me.  But to each his own.
 
I respect Jason - but he upgrades his products.  And the Gen 1 board was inferior - he even admits that.  So why would he put our an inferior product?  Jason is entertaining and he certainly has a definite attitude - but I know many very skilled audio Engineers who would disagree with him and Moffet on certain design issues.

 
Thanks for the link.
 
re: the upgraded and upgradable nature of the Bifrost, that says to me that Schiit is willing to keep the unit viable well past its shelf life, if it had not been upgradable.  According to Jason, that was Mike's intent.  And in the limited real estate of my desktop's landscape, adding yet another device is not appealing.  And what happens when that device becomes out-dated (I won't say obsolete)?  With the Bifrost, one can buy the upgrade, if one chooses, and swap it in.
 
To me that's not building an inferior product, that's putting out the best one can (according to one's own standards) at that time.  If one were to wait until the next best USB receiver chip, one would never release a DAC, as there's always going to be a next best thing at some point in the future.  And with the upgraded Gen 2 USB for the Bifrost, it seems Mike's design worked for them.  I appreciate the concept.
 
I'm curious, have you compared a Bifrost Uber w/Gen 2 USB to the Gustard?  I can't recall.  Like I said, I'd love to, but even at $155 (seems reasonable), I can't justify it.

 

[ThurstonX]

  Well not to get to far from the Lyr tube rolling thing - there are issues with the CM6631A. See http://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2013/04/11/diyinhk-xmos-usb-the-dxio/
 

 
Went to that link, but it's not about the CMedia chip.  Found this:
 
http://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2013/04/03/c-media-cm6631a-based-usb-i2s-interface/
 
but I don't see any mention of "issues."  I do see this:

"Bottom Line: Don’t worry about jitter! It’s more than likely inaudible in a modern computer system and with decent (not necessarily expensive) audio gear. I see no evidence that high CPU/GPU load makes any difference to jitter. Isolating your DAC from electrical noise polluting the analogue output seems much more important."
 
(linked from within the previous link: http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/03/measurements-adaptive-aune-x1.html)
 
In case I missed them, to what "issues" are you referring?

 

[rb2013]

   
Went to that link, but it's not about the CMedia chip.  Found this:
 
http://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2013/04/03/c-media-cm6631a-based-usb-i2s-interface/
 
but I don't see any mention of "issues."  I do see this:

"Bottom Line: Don’t worry about jitter! It’s more than likely inaudible in a modern computer system and with decent (not necessarily expensive) audio gear. I see no evidence that high CPU/GPU load makes any difference to jitter. Isolating your DAC from electrical noise polluting the analogue output seems much more important."
 
(linked from within the previous link: http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/03/measurements-adaptive-aune-x1.html)
 
In case I missed them, to what "issues" are you referring?

I'll post over on the Gustard U12 thread so as not to take this one to far a field.  
 
Just a comment about folks and their $2000 tube collection feeding a $400 amp and about Schiit.  I obviously, think very highly of their products - I own one.  It does seem to me that folks buy tubes for variety of reasons - for some it's a collector thing, others are tinkers, some I suppose are looking at these as investments (hoping they'll appreciate over time), and for some it's the audio sound quality.  In other words, they're trying to achieve the best sound quality possible.  None of course is any more or less valid then the other - heck it's your money.  For me, and I'm only speaking about me, I'm looking for the best sound quality I can buy at the cheapest price - period. 

 

[rb2013]

   
Thanks for the link.
 
re: the upgraded and upgradable nature of the Bifrost, that says to me that Schiit is willing to keep the unit viable well past its shelf life, if it had not been upgradable.  According to Jason, that was Mike's intent.  And in the limited real estate of my desktop's landscape, adding yet another device is not appealing.  And what happens when that device becomes out-dated (I won't say obsolete)?  With the Bifrost, one can buy the upgrade, if one chooses, and swap it in.
 
To me that's not building an inferior product, that's putting out the best one can (according to one's own standards) at that time.  If one were to wait until the next best USB receiver chip, one would never release a DAC, as there's always going to be a next best thing at some point in the future.  And with the upgraded Gen 2 USB for the Bifrost, it seems Mike's design worked for them.  I appreciate the concept.
 
I'm curious, have you compared a Bifrost Uber w/Gen 2 USB to the Gustard?  I can't recall.  Like I said, I'd love to, but even at $155 (seems reasonable), I can't justify it.

Well the desktop real estate issue is understandable - although the Gustard is quite small.  As for the general issue regarding upgrading - that was my point originally -which I guess was missed.  Let me ask - what would you do with your Gen 1 board if you upgraded to Gen 2?  Sell it?  To who??  The market of buyers is quite small - Bifrost owners without a board.  If you have a separate USB unit -the potential of buyers in the used market is much bigger.  I sold both of my old Musiland USB 3.0 interfaces in days one $121.50 and the other for $129.  So the cost for this major upgrade was net around $40.  Money well spent.  Second - I don't have to send it back to Schiit for the upgrade - or open the case myself to swap boards.  It's just unplug the old, and plug in the new.  But what if one day you wish to upgrade your DAC?  Then you're out of luck - unless the new DAC has built in USB 2.0.
 
BTW at the time the Gen 1 was released it was widely panned - and was limited in capability compared to other inexpensive interfaces at the time - that wasn't that far back like 2012.  But that's neither here nor there.  I have heard the Bifrost - it's a very good value for the money.  I prefer better tube DACs. 
 
In this comprehensive review it was rated in Division 4, but with the Uber upgrade and Gen 2 USB board it was raised to Division 3.  Still - excellent for the money.  http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/the-darko-dac-index/
 
Edit PS I originally said if someone was buying a new Bifrost - they should consider the Gustard instead of the Gen2 board.  I still think that makes sense.

 

[rb2013]

Edit

 

[stjj89]

 
For me, and I'm only speaking about me, I'm looking for the best sound quality I can buy at the cheapest price - period. 

 
Amen to that!

 

[ThurstonX]

  Well the desktop real estate issue is understandable - although the Gustard is quite small.  As for the general issue regarding upgrading - that was my point originally -which I guess was missed.  Let me ask - what would you do with your Gen 1 board if you upgraded to Gen 2?  Sell it?  To who??  The market of buyers is quite small - Bifrost owners without a board.  If you have a separate USB unit -the potential of buyers in the used market is much bigger.  I sold both of my old Musiland USB 3.0 interfaces in days one $121.50 and the other for $129.  So the cost for this major upgrade was net around $40.  Money well spent.  Second - I don't have to send it back to Schiit for the upgrade - or open the case myself to swap boards.  It's just unplug the old, and plug in the new.  But what if one day you wish to upgrade your DAC?  Then you're out of luck - unless the new DAC has built in USB 2.0.
 
BTW at the time the Gen 1 was released it was widely panned - and was limited in capability compared to other inexpensive interfaces at the time - that wasn't that far back like 2012.  But that's neither here nor there.  I have heard the Bifrost - it's a very good value for the money.  I prefer better tube DACs. 
 
In this comprehensive review it was rated in Division 4, but with the Uber upgrade and Gen 2 USB board it was raised to Division 3.  Still - excellent for the money.  http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/the-darko-dac-index/
 
Edit PS I originally said if someone was buying a new Bifrost - they should consider the Gustard instead of the Gen2 board.  I still think that makes sense.

 
re: the Gen 2 board and when a replacement is available, if I think the upgrade will get me better sound (see, I'm with you there), then I'll buy it and install it.  And I'll nail the Gen 2 board to Wall of Shame, which already contains a few tubes 

  I see your point about the resale market for the U12.  I'd guess Gustard would price an upgraded model (let's call it the U13) at a similarly attractive price point.  But yes, you'd be making back some of the $155.  As I've said, if I'd known about the U12 when I bought the Bifrost (if it had existed), then I would have made space for it and forgone the USB add-on.  C'est la vie.  Maybe someone will do a direct comparison with the Gen 2 board and convince me it's worth getting.  Or maybe I'll just wait for the U13 

  Trust me, you've sold me on its awesomeness, just not my need for it.
 
I freely admit I went for the all-in-one solution, as I didn't think about an external USB device, and I'm still assuming I'll have the Bifrost for a while.
Cheers 

 

[rb2013]

   
re: the Gen 2 board and when a replacement is available, if I think the upgrade will get me better sound (see, I'm with you there), then I'll buy it and install it.  And I'll nail the Gen 2 board to Wall of Shame, which already contains a few tubes 

  I see your point about the resale market for the U12.  I'd guess Gustard would price an upgraded model (let's call it the U13) at a similarly attractive price point.  But yes, you'd be making back some of the $155.  As I've said, if I'd known about the U12 when I bought the Bifrost (if it had existed), then I would have made space for it and forgone the USB add-on.  C'est la vie.  Maybe someone will do a direct comparison with the Gen 2 board and convince me it's worth getting.  Or maybe I'll just wait for the U13 

  Trust me, you've sold me on its awesomeness, just not my need for it.
 
I freely admit I went for the all-in-one solution, as I didn't think about an external USB device, and I'm still assuming I'll have the Bifrost for a while.
Cheers 

I have done the same with the M2Tech Hiface, M2Tech Evo, Audiophileo2, etc.  They all sold quickly.  If I had to nail them to the wall - it'd be covered 

 
 
Although, I do have a ton of capacitors piling up from my upgrade projects, those are round and very hard to nail. Not much of a used market for $2.58 (new) caps.  
 
I had the Musilands for 2 yrs - a pretty long time.  I hope to have the U12 for the same.
 
The Bifrost is a great unit, that like the Lyr punches way over it's weigh limit.  Hopefully it'll serve your needs for years.
 
Cheers!
 

 

[Flisker]

   
re: the Gen 2 board and when a replacement is available, if I think the upgrade will get me better sound (see, I'm with you there), then I'll buy it and install it.  And I'll nail the Gen 2 board to Wall of Shame, which already contains a few tubes 

  I see your point about the resale market for the U12.  I'd guess Gustard would price an upgraded model (let's call it the U13) at a similarly attractive price point.  But yes, you'd be making back some of the $155.  As I've said, if I'd known about the U12 when I bought the Bifrost (if it had existed), then I would have made space for it and forgone the USB add-on.  C'est la vie.  Maybe someone will do a direct comparison with the Gen 2 board and convince me it's worth getting.  Or maybe I'll just wait for the U13 

  Trust me, you've sold me on its awesomeness, just not my need for it.
 
I freely admit I went for the all-in-one solution, as I didn't think about an external USB device, and I'm still assuming I'll have the Bifrost for a while.
Cheers 

 
+1, exactly my point of view, I just wouldn't be able to write it down as well as Thurston did