[JohnnyCanuck]

I thought it was spelled "Nickelback".


JC

 

[bcowen]

So we should ban all things Nickelodeon?

No, of course not. We’d still allow Barbie just for you.

 

[Ripper2860]

Wait! Barbie's on Nickelodeon!?

Oh, please let it be Nick at Night!

 

[Bowmoreman]

Indeed, sound stage is real to those who can hear it, and in the recordings that generate the effect. But it has no meaning in terms of evaluating audio equipment or systems since it is subjective. But what you or I experience is certainly real to us. It's experiential, as you described.

My point is it absolutely DOES have meaning in terms of evaluating equipment/systems, you either make it happen (better) or you don’t (and it’s worse), everyone hears SOME part of soundstage quality.

I would submit that a system setup without consideration of sound-stage as a measurement criteria - however “subjective” - is likely going to be a system that almost certainly is NOT going to provide a believable facsimile of “being in concert hall”

I will *always* evaluate every change I make with how it affects soundstaging as a key success/failure criteria. I hear it. I can change it/note the change. It is just as valuable a metric as anything measured with a “device”; frankly to me, more valuable.

Secondly, everyone can hear soundstaging, it is only a question of how much of it they have trained themselves - experientially - against real, live, unaltered, acoustic music. If one is completely unfamiliar with classical orchestral music live, one is likely to never understand the actual POINT of getting to a system of quality and synergy to reproduce it realistically. Reductio ad absurdum: “yeah, I can hear some stuff over there on the left, and other stuff over there on the right, neat!” That IS soundstaging, and the most ignorant/inexperienced of listeners IS going to hear it. It’s about whether or not they *appreciate* it. And that takes listening “muscle memory” that can only be developed (accurately) with live, real, acoustic music as the reference.

All that said, I agree that it is almost a certainty that we’ll never get “numbers” to “measure it”… in the last 40 years of the “chase” for such capabilities, we only (seem to be in my experience) getting incrementally closer, and that with constant “trade offs” (not the least of which is INSANE levels of spend)

 

[Bowmoreman]

The biggest effect/causal-agent I have personally experienced is related to phase. If something in phase is off, I hear the craziest placements: Ella Fitzgerald singing from the kitchen one floor down on the other side of the condo, drums coming from the wall opposite where the speakers are... you name it!

Yep… and some electronic bands (Kraftwerk for example are famous for their intentional use of altered phasing: check out Tour de France on LP if you can sometime) leverage MASSIVE phase effects to intentionally “move” sound placement… Everyone I’m sure has their favorites…

I’ve vivid memories of listening to that back in my Rega Planar 3, Linn K9, Adcom/Adcom, Vandersteen 2c phase in the late 80s… about 3 minutes in there is the sounds of someone back-pedaling vigorously/rythmically on their bicycle derailleur, and the sounds make a figure-8-shaped slightly tilted forwards back and forth from far left to far right, all while being about 4 feet *above* the speaker plane. It was WILD. I had that room tuned to within an inch of its life, and could get epic soundstages…. When I upgraded to my “forever rig” the Apogees did that no sweat, and so much more.

From what my experience has taught me, phase is literally the foundation of soundstaging, and anything that messes with it, especially if it varies with frequency or dynamics, destroys accurate staging. Oh, if one has equipment with an absolute-phase switch AND also good recordings such as I described, you can easily hear differences in absolute phase. (Well at least I can)

That said, the only way to get *accurate* soundstaging is to chase after reproducing the sound you have experienced live, with live, unamplified, acoustic music, preferably a recording from the same hall you have listened in and are familiar with. Because otherwise, and I’m sure this is your main point @Ableza it is un-reproduceably/un-repeatably subjective; you can’t KNOW the reference for modern, multi-tracked/mixed/dubbed/blah-ed to death recordings. THAT soundstaging is 100% subjective, and thus inappropriate to use *across* different listeners in isolation.

But, chasing the concert hall sound with familiar recordings, is absolutely repeatable, and objective (to the limits of sonic memory). Every friend that joined in the high-end journey from the 70’s to this day… made their systems better using this method. One of my friends end rig was also Apogees and Classe’. Another’s was Krell/Martin Logan (via Magnepans and Bryston)… each got there incrementally and with HUGE doses of exposure to live, acoustic music. We were young, single, tech guys with too much time and money and we’d often go to concerts together to have a common baseline. Then off to one of our pads to do an all weekend listening session to see what changes, or tweaks would have an affect in the direction we wanted our systems to go. It was also helpful that it was almost always at least 3 of us, sometimes more (our core group was 3).

My logic tells me that any system that can do that right, can do all other music “right”. Now, whether that music was mixed to BE “right” is a different thing. But truly I say, if ones system can make a symphonic Tympani sound real, that’s plenty of slam for me regardless of genre.

(He says off to find that Kraftwerk LP and give it a go in this new - relatively - room, it’s time to see if more tuning is needed)
((He says wishing he was back in the days when going to the symphony was a monthly or more frequent thing))

 

[fendermke]

Here‘s my contribution to the Bass test tracks:

Back in my car stereo days I had a Boston Acoustics/ADS system. Fond memories of that stereo. Here’s the CD liner notes and track artists. The only track I couldn’t find was Natty Stick.

The Boston Bass Disk - I created a Tidal Playlist for it: https://tidal.com/user/165425287

SMOOTH OCTAVE-TO-OCTAVE TONAL BALANCE - Listen to the bass lines on Beehave Yourself and the upright bass on How Deep Is The Ocean. AS

the player moves up and down the scale, you should perceive each note at the same volume level.

A poorly designed subwoofer system will unduly stress some notes as opposed to others.

DYNAMIC RANGE. A well-designed subwoofer system should respond well to the dynamics of the music. Listen to No Fiesta and Robin for clarity in both loud and soft passages.

FREQUENCY RANGE. Detail at very low frequencies is a good test for subs. Iguana and Winter Creeper are both loaded with low-frequency bass information. Listen closely to see if your system can sort through it all and provide detailed low bass with true impact.

CONTROL. The sound of a subwooter should be sharp and clean. Not muddy or sloppy.

Listen to the tightness in cuts like No Fiesta and Zulu King. On cut number 8, Skoshus, the bass and kick drum are in unison. They should sound like two distinct instruments as opposed to one indistinct bass sound.

TRANSIENTS. A transient is defined as a sonic event high in energy and fleeting in duration. The instant a stick hits a drum head, or the attack of a sharp bass note, for instance.

Transients in the lower bass range should sound clean, distinct and realistic. Yet, on many subs they don't. Here's why. In order to play such a fleeting, high-energy note, a subwoofer must "get out of the blocks" quickly and with a lot of force. In an inefficient system, the assembly receives the impulse, but can't translate it into a clean sound because it doesn't react fast enough. The result is a slurred transient that sounds muddy and indistinct. Boston subs reproduce transients with relative ease. Try Tribute to Art, for great transients.

 

[unclefred]

6N1P? same as Valhalla input tubes?
So the parabolic dish like recess can reflect some heat to the tip of the tube ....

if nothing else, the depression on top reduces the need for a socket saver and it's safer for changing tube in and out without damage.

 

[OldRoadToad]

An ASR acolyte would never listen to music on their equipment.

Mostly (like their frAudiophile counterparts) they tend to listen to the dulcet tones of their ego as that tends to act as an ANC and pretty much mutes everything else, including common sense.

And a sense of humor.

ORT

 

[OldRoadToad]

Wait! Barbie's on Nickelodeon!?

Oh, please let it be Nick at Night!

It sounds like quite the fappening.

ORT

 

[Ableza]

My point is it absolutely DOES have meaning in terms of evaluating equipment/systems, you either make it happen (better) or you don’t (and it’s worse), everyone hears SOME part of soundstage quality.

I would submit that a system setup without consideration of sound-stage as a measurement criteria - however “subjective” - is likely going to be a system that almost certainly is NOT going to provide a believable facsimile of “being in concert hall”

I will *always* evaluate every change I make with how it affects soundstaging as a key success/failure criteria. I hear it. I can change it/note the change. It is just as valuable a metric as anything measured with a “device”; frankly to me, more valuable.

Secondly, everyone can hear soundstaging, it is only a question of how much of it they have trained themselves - experientially - against real, live, unaltered, acoustic music. If one is completely unfamiliar with classical orchestral music live, one is likely to never understand the actual POINT of getting to a system of quality and synergy to reproduce it realistically. Reductio ad absurdum: “yeah, I can hear some stuff over there on the left, and other stuff over there on the right, neat!” That IS soundstaging, and the most ignorant/inexperienced of listeners IS going to hear it. It’s about whether or not they *appreciate* it. And that takes listening “muscle memory” that can only be developed (accurately) with live, real, acoustic music as the reference.

All that said, I agree that it is almost a certainty that we’ll never get “numbers” to “measure it”… in the last 40 years of the “chase” for such capabilities, we only (seem to be in my experience) getting incrementally closer, and that with constant “trade offs” (not the least of which is INSANE levels of spend)

If it's important to you then it's important to you. Are you enjoying the music? That's all that matters to me.

 

[golfbravobravo]

I suppose if you really wanted to, you could adapt a injector nozzle heater such as these made by Briskheat:

From Good Vibrations?

 

[Ableza]

From Good Vibrations?

Ha! Might get a little warm for that...

 

[LobalWarming]

If it's important to you then it's important to you. Are you enjoying the music? That's all that matters to me.

Waitaminute! You're expecting personal enjoyment from our personal audio systems?! This is the internet, good sir. We're not permitted to enjoy anything!

 

[artur9]

...
Secondly, everyone can hear soundstaging, it is only a question of how much of it they have trained themselves - experientially - against real, live, unaltered, acoustic music. ...

A coworker (call him D) and I were in a conversation with another coworker (call him A) about music. D, in a former life, made $ playing jazz at weddings etc.

A said, "Why do you need stereo speakers?" D and I both said, "Because then we can tell where the instruments are and that matters to us."
A said, "What?" and we said, "We want to hear the violins on the left, where they are supposed to be, and the drums in the back,..."
A said, "How do you know that?"

 

[Ableza]

Waitaminute! You're expecting personal enjoyment from our personal audio systems?! This is the internet, good sir. We're not permitted to enjoy anything!

Yea I forgot; I'm supposed to be listening to the system not the music...