[AstronomerXI]

I like that little rack that you have there.

It's a pair of monitor stands: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079FPT1VX/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1

 

[Paladin79]

It's a pair of monitor stands: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079FPT1VX/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1

Very nice indeed, great shopping!

 

[Mark200]

So I think blind testing should have open minded discussion between people who are willing to argue constructively. With the possibility to demand replays. And a willingness to respect the other person even when a result is unexpected.

Blind testing "with discussion" is fine (as a supplement to individual testing), so long as everyone is blind to which product is being tested. But I think individual blind testing results would have value also. I agree that discussion may help people hear differences they didn't notice on their own, but there is a clear danger that discussion may just cause people to agree to something just because they want to "belong" to the group, they want to defer to "experts," or they are afraid of being different (even if their hearing is different than most others).

Clearly, when it comes to audio, not everyone's hearing is the same, and hearing can change within a short period of time just depending on how much wax a person has in their ears on any given day. Also, I would bet that a large percentage of people over 50 years old can't hear much over 5 kHz (which is actually not that big a deal for most music). If everyone on this forum had to publish a certified audiogram of their hearing, I think it would send shock waves throughout this forum.

As far as the visual tests you participated in with regard to the flames (or whatever), there can be a difference in visual appearances depending on whether one is wearing contacts or glasses because of the various lens coatings, including those coatings that block or inhibit certain frequencies of light, or cause scattering of light (especially if the lenses are not perfectly clean or are old enough to have a lot of micro-scratches). Not to mention that not everyone has or contacts or lenses that match their current visual acuity as measured by an optometrist (our vision changes as we get older, but also changes depending on our current health and whether we are rested or fatigued).

But the question is not usually whether there is a difference (is there a flame or no flame, or is the sound the same or different), but whether the difference is significant enough to worry about. Sometimes it matters, but sometimes the difference doesn't matter enough to worry about. It also depends on how much money a person has.

 

[Paladin79]

Blind testing "with discussion" is fine (as a supplement to individual testing), so long as everyone is blind to which product is being tested. But I think individual blind testing results would have value also. I agree that discussion may help people hear differences they didn't notice on their own, but there is a clear danger that discussion may just cause people to agree to something just because they want to "belong" to the group, they want to defer to "experts," or they are afraid of being different (even if their hearing is different than most others).

Clearly, when it comes to audio, not everyone's hearing is the same, and hearing can change within a short period of time just depending on how much wax a person has in their ears on any given day. Also, I would bet that a large percentage of people over 50 years old can't hear much over 5 kHz (which is actually not that big a deal for most music). If everyone on this forum had to publish a certified audiogram of their hearing, I think it would send shock waves throughout this forum.

As far as the visual tests you participated in with regard to the flames (or whatever), there can be a difference in visual appearances depending on whether one is wearing contacts or glasses because of the various lens coatings, including those coatings that block or inhibit certain frequencies of light, or cause scattering of light (especially if the lenses are not perfectly clean or are old enough to have a lot of micro-scratches). Not to mention that not everyone has or contacts or lenses that match their current visual acuity as measured by an optometrist (our vision changes as we get older, but also changes depending on our current health and whether we are rested or fatigued).

But the question is not usually whether there is a difference (is there a flame or no flame, or is the sound the same or different), but whether the difference is significant enough to worry about. Sometimes it matters, but sometimes the difference doesn't matter enough to worry about. It also depends on how much money a person has.

I will just say that those over 50 are less likely to hear above 15k, not 5k. You would be correct in saying above 15k is not a big deal for most music. Now as far as your other statements, I have my preferred methods of going about this and they are certainly not for everyone. We do test a large range of ages but even the older folks have been involved with audio for many years and helped draw up our specific listening criteria.

Oh and I am over fifty (hush Cowen ) , I have had my hearing tested by a very competent audiologist and I do have a couple issues with high specific high frequencies around 14khertz.

 

[artur9]

Are you using agile/lean methodologies? CI?

"They" always say "they" are and yet I see no evidence of it.

CI only if you mean "compiling and ignoring" as opposed to "continuous integration"

 

[Mark200]

I will just say that those over 50 are less likely to hear above 15k, not 5k. You are correct in saying above 15k is not a big deal for most music. Now as far as your other statements, I have my preferred methods of going about this and they are certainly not for everyone. We do test a large range of ages but even the older folks have been involved with audio for many years and helped draw up our specific listening criteria.

I didn't mean to suggest that all people over 50 can't hear above 5 kHz. Nor did I mean that hearing goes to zero at 5 kHz for those with age related hearing loss. But I think it would be interesting to see certified audiograms of the members of this forum.

Also, from what I have read, the highest frequency on a piano is only 4,186.01 Hz, so that is why I said that high frequency hearing loss is not as big a deal as most think, but obviously it depends on the type of music one is listing to. One thing I have come to realize is the midrange frequencies are extremely important, and that is why I favor 3-way speaker systems with a dedicated midrange driver. Single "driver" headphones by definition tend to perform well in the mid-range.

 

[Mark200]

"They" always say "they" are and yet I see no evidence of it.

CI only if you mean "compiling and ignoring" as opposed to "continuous integration"

Regardless of what type of software development methodology that is used, having a good QA process done by a separate group of people is key to software quality.

 

[Pondoro]

Regardless of what type of software development methodology that is used, having a good QA process done by a separate group of people is key to software quality.

Yes. The dedicated software tester wants to break the software. The author really and truly does not. No one wants to see their baby fail, no matter how committed they are to testing it.

 

[Pondoro]

Blind testing "with discussion" is fine (as a supplement to individual testing), so long as everyone is blind to which product is being tested. But I think individual blind testing results would have value also. I agree that discussion may help people hear differences they didn't notice on their own, but there is a clear danger that discussion may just cause people to agree to something just because they want to "belong" to the group, they want to defer to "experts," or they are afraid of being different (even if their hearing is different than most others).

Clearly, when it comes to audio, not everyone's hearing is the same, and hearing can change within a short period of time just depending on how much wax a person has in their ears on any given day. Also, I would bet that a large percentage of people over 50 years old can't hear much over 5 kHz (which is actually not that big a deal for most music). If everyone on this forum had to publish a certified audiogram of their hearing, I think it would send shock waves throughout this forum.

As far as the visual tests you participated in with regard to the flames (or whatever), there can be a difference in visual appearances depending on whether one is wearing contacts or glasses because of the various lens coatings, including those coatings that block or inhibit certain frequencies of light, or cause scattering of light (especially if the lenses are not perfectly clean or are old enough to have a lot of micro-scratches). Not to mention that not everyone has or contacts or lenses that match their current visual acuity as measured by an optometrist (our vision changes as we get older, but also changes depending on our current health and whether we are rested or fatigued).

But the question is not usually whether there is a difference (is there a flame or no flame, or is the sound the same or different), but whether the difference is significant enough to worry about. Sometimes it matters, but sometimes the difference doesn't matter enough to worry about. It also depends on how much money a person has.

I had actually wondered about our glasses, made from different plastics, and the extra cost coating that I paid to have applied to my glasses. And our angle of view. What I love, is that none of us was deferential to the group. The mechanics and crane operator and PhD all argued about whether they’d seen a flame as equals, our group is just like that and I enjoy it.

 

[Paladin79]

I didn't mean to suggest that all people over 50 can't hear above 5 kHz. Nor did I mean that hearing goes to zero at 5 kHz for those with age related hearing loss. But I think it would be interesting to see certified audiograms of the members of this forum.

Also, from what I have read, the highest frequency on a piano is only 4,186.01 Hz, so that is why I said that high frequency hearing loss is not as big a deal as most think, but obviously it depends on the type of music one is listing to. One thing I have come to realize is the midrange frequencies are extremely important, and that is why I favor 3-way speaker systems with a dedicated midrange driver. Single "driver" headphones by definition tend to perform well in the mid-range.

I didn't mean to suggest that all people over 50 can't hear above 5 kHz. Nor did I mean that hearing goes to zero at 5 kHz for those with age related hearing loss. But I think it would be interesting to see certified audiograms of the members of this forum.

Also, from what I have read, the highest frequency on a piano is only 4,186.01 Hz, so that is why I said that high frequency hearing loss is not as big a deal as most think, but obviously it depends on the type of music one is listing to. One thing I have come to realize is the midrange frequencies are extremely important, and that is why I favor 3-way speaker systems with a dedicated midrange driver. Single "driver" headphones by definition tend to perform well in the mid-range.

You said a large percentage cannot hear above 5k, I doubt you will find that many here since this forum has to do with audio.

Oh and as far as what Pandoro said about believing people in blind testing should have replays, we allow for that, it is one of the reasons our testing can run an entire weekend or more. We do use a numbering system so that people can even refer back to a score they gave a particular piece of gear. Those are only known as say 1-15 in our upcoming tests.

 

[tincanear]

I didn't mean to suggest that all people over 50 can't hear above 5 kHz. Nor did I mean that hearing goes to zero at 5 kHz for those with age related hearing loss. But I think it would be interesting to see certified audiograms of the members of this forum.

Also, from what I have read, the highest frequency on a piano is only 4,186.01 Hz, so that is why I said that high frequency hearing loss is not as big a deal as most think, but obviously it depends on the type of music one is listing to. One thing I have come to realize is the midrange frequencies are extremely important, and that is why I favor 3-way speaker systems with a dedicated midrange driver. Single "driver" headphones by definition tend to perform well in the mid-range.

not just the fundamental frequency, but the harmonics (e.g. 8372, 12558, 16744, 20930) are important as well

 

[bcowen]

I didn't mean to suggest that all people over 50 can't hear above 5 kHz. Nor did I mean that hearing goes to zero at 5 kHz for those with age related hearing loss. But I think it would be interesting to see certified audiograms of the members of this forum.

To what end? Anyone with some hearing loss can't possibly determine which component they like?

Also, from what I have read, the highest frequency on a piano is only 4,186.01 Hz, so that is why I said that high frequency hearing loss is not as big a deal as most think, but obviously it depends on the type of music one is listing to. One thing I have come to realize is the midrange frequencies are extremely important, and that is why I favor 3-way speaker systems with a dedicated midrange driver. Single "driver" headphones by definition tend to perform well in the mid-range.

If you listen only to solo piano pieces.

 

[FLTWS]

 

[hearditontheX]

Stereophile Tyr review, https://www.stereophile.com/content/schiit-audio-tyr-monoblock-power-amplifier .

 

[Mark200]

Yes. The dedicated software tester wants to break the software. The author really and truly does not. No one wants to see their baby fail, no matter how committed they are to testing it.

No one, neither the programmer nor the QA tester, wants to see an important piece of software go into production with problems, that might endanger the success of the company they work for.