[Dalgas]

Dalgas' post is only the 2nd I have seen that states Moffat bass is a "weak point". It seems clear Schiit DACs are not the best fit for Dalgas' listening whereas the TDA1543 DIY DAC fits very well.

As Jason and Mike have noted that building the perfect DAC (amp etc) for everyone is not possible.

For sure. This is one of the most personal, subjective hobbies around. It's also one with many stages. Listening skills, preferences, what sounds 'right'...all seem to change often.

The gear I used to think sounded 'good' or 'bad', and the flaws (and strengths!) I didn't notice in past years...

 
I think you have a strong point there! I am going to test the two DACs once more with a friend of mine. He has a different setup with full range floorspeakers and a USB/SPDIF converter. I am not ready to rule out - and sell - my Gumby just yet.
 
Also the digital cables I used is of mediocre quality - and maybe the Gumby is more sensitive/revealing here.
 
Finally I will definately try a different source - USB/SPDIF converter and my labtop.

 

[jcn3]

 
Professor AB,
 
I'm flabbergasted, I've never read of nor heard an explanation like this.  Phew!  I expect other Audio Engineering folks already have this as a Given, it's news to me. 
 
The concept of Consumer Audio reproductions system having a latent capability of performing 92db is astonishing, loudspeaker Amp capabilities must be staggering considering typical efficiencies of 82db for the 'first' watt, wattage doubling for each additional 3db. will quickly take us well past the 1,000 Watt levels.
 
I guess I can now begin to understand the importance of your headphone Amplifier measurements and headphone efficiency ratings, we're getting close to maxing out our little Amps with headphones trying to accurately reproduce at these incredible levels.
 
You're pulling back the curtains on the technicalities of all things headphone & digital reproduction.  This last four weeks of your posts could be weaved together into a One Hour Seminar at RMAF, I'd be spellbound sitting in the Audience.   
 
This post from you begins to explain my personal experience with my phenomenal HD580s, I've never owned a Large Loudspeaker system as musically capable.  I'll ask my Cardiologist if I can risk venturing into the 24 bit world, Mahler 2 at Detroit Symphony last weekend was frightening for me, I felt like I was Over-dosing on drugs, it was hitting 120db in my seating area.  
 
I have to think about all this, I'll re-read your explanation a couple more times over the next two or three days.  This seems profound.
 
Thank you,
 
Tony in MIchigan
 
ps.  I think OPPO is the only headphone maker claiming musical abilities greater than 100db., I forget which model but there's only three. ( your statement of headphone abilities is Big News! ) 

 
i think the point that's being lost here is that dynamic range is different from volume level.  there's also signal to noise ratios and speaker sensitivities.  all happen to be measured in decibels (db) and mean different things.
 
dynamic range of a dac or music files represents the ability to discern between a range of sounds -- it's sensitivity.
 
the volume at which we listen to something is entirely different.  listening for prolonged periods to sounds with a volume of as little as 95 db can result in hearing loss.  i would bet few of us listen to music at levels consistently over 90 db.

 

[atomicbob]

  And this is where you give the hearing warning. 130dB SPL at the ears is more than enough for permanent hearing loss. I'm always amazed by the dynamic range, and people forgetting that at the top end, if you use it, its going to hurt.

 
 

   
i think the point that's being lost here is that dynamic range is different from volume level.  there's also signal to noise ratios and speaker sensitivities.  all happen to be measured in decibels (db) and mean different things.
 
dynamic range of a dac or music files represents the ability to discern between a range of sounds -- it's sensitivity.
 
the volume at which we listen to something is entirely different.  listening for prolonged periods to sounds with a volume of as little as 95 db can result in hearing loss.  i would bet few of us listen to music at levels consistently over 90 db.

 
Both very good points for everyone to note. Indeed, long listening sessions to Sound Pressure Levels (SPL) above 85 dB is a recipe for hearing loss. I prefer to gain stage my setup for 78 dB SPL average, 88 dB SPL peak listening and let the DAC have an exceedingly black background, very low noise floor, for most of my listening. Occasionally I allow myself some higher levels for brief periods.
 
Unfortunately I have observed some others that listen at much higher levels, and this concerns me for their long term hearing ability.

 

[atomicbob]

  <edit>
 
I guess I can now begin to understand the importance of your headphone Amplifier measurements and headphone efficiency ratings, we're getting close to maxing out our little Amps with headphones trying to accurately reproduce at these incredible levels.
 
<edit>
 
This post from you begins to explain my personal experience with my phenomenal HD580s, I've never owned a Large Loudspeaker system as musically capable.  I'll ask my Cardiologist if I can risk venturing into the 24 bit world, Mahler 2 at Detroit Symphony last weekend was frightening for me, I felt like I was Over-dosing on drugs, it was hitting 120db in my seating area.  
 
I have to think about all this, I'll re-read your explanation a couple more times over the next two or three days.  This seems profound.
 
Thank you,
 
Tony in MIchigan
 
ps.  I think OPPO is the only headphone maker claiming musical abilities greater than 100db., I forget which model but there's only three. ( your statement of headphone abilities is Big News! ) 

Just because one has the capability doesn't mean one need use it. Gain staging for an 85 dB experience and listening at lower levels in general has the benefit of preserving one's hearing and letting the system have an astonishing black background. The playback isn't obvious as being recorded when there is no residual hiss, hum or other extraneous noise.
 
Most manufacturers avoid mentioning an upper limit as it is a function of distortion. People love to compare numbers, even if they don't fully appreciate how those numbers were measured. So one mfg can say 107 dB (fine print 0.02% distortion at 1 KHz) while another publishes 130 dB (probably 10% at 1 KHz.) so 130 is larger than 107. Easy. Except they were measured to different distortion specs. The former may be far more transparent a headphone, and 107 dB is plenty LOUD. BTW, the 107 dB example is for Sennheiser HD800. The spec is 0.02% THD at 1 KHz for 1Vrms and one needs to calculate the SPL using the sensitivity of 102 dB/mW and the 300 ohm nominal impedance. 1Vrms will produce 3.33 mW into 300 ohms. 3.33 mW will drive the HD800 5.22 dB higher than at 1mW so we have 102 + 5 = 107 dB SPL at 0.02% distortion at 1 KHz.

 

[ToTo Man]

  Just because one has the capability doesn't mean one need use it. Gain staging for an 85 dB experience and listening at lower levels in general has the benefit of preserving one's hearing and letting the system have an astonishing black background. The playback isn't obvious as being recorded when there is no residual hiss, hum or other extraneous noise.

Loudspeakers can be measured using an SPL meter at the listening position, but how does one easily measure how loud they are listening on their headphones without specialist equipment?  [EDIT - It's ok I found this thread: www.head-fi.org/t/507953/what-do-you-use-to-measure-sound-levels].
 
I have to fight the urge to crank my headphones little by little as the listening session goes on (I start off quiet but almost always finish up loud as my ears get used to the SPLs and don't think it's as loud as it really is!).  Anyone else have this problem?
 
PS - I know you were referring to end-user playback equipment induced noise, but the presence of hiss is reassuring if it is present on the original recording.  There's nothing worse than those remasters that have been "de-noised" with noise reduction and have had the life and air sucked out of them!...

 

[ToTo Man]

.

 

[tonykaz]

Dear AB,
 
phew, that is a relief, I don't think I could handle the emotional stress of high SPL levels.
 
I find myself dialing-down on many Classical Recording's thunderous passages.  I'm probably listening at much lower levels than those you just quoted because my HD580s never seem stressed to the point of breaking-up, I've heard and admired the HD800s which seem to have greater 'headroom' than my stuff.  
 
And, thanks for the explanation about the Yggy dynamic range being comfortably greater than the Music it's playing, I think I get the picture of it having room on either side of the actual music's dynamic range which leaves me pondering the capabilities of the DAC I'm using.
 
Well, I'm seeing a developing image of the requirements behind being able to reproduce digital music. Back in the day we seemed to have gear designed by Ear, now engineers have precise and accurate measurement tools.  I'm suspecting that Audio Design is no longer in the Dark Ages.  I'm lov'n it!  
 
Mr Novick at Audio Precision offered to test anyones gear ( at the RMAF room ), which has me contemplating sending my stuff off to be properly tested.  After all, I'm having my own hearing accurately evaluated, why not my audio gear?  Tyll has a large catalog of graphs for hundreds of Audiophile headphones, I wonder if someone will develop a catalog of graphs of Amplifiers and DACs?
 
I feel like I'm watching the knowledge Genie escaping the Consumer Products Bottle.  
 
250 years ago Ben Franklin gave us the Lightning Rod and we've come this far!,  what would our life be like if god gave Moses the lightning rod along with the 10 Commandments, at least 4,000 years ago? Phew, the Romans might've invited the iPhone for krice'sake. 
 
Tony in Michigan

 

[mikoss]

I also don't listen at high volumes, but can easily hear the ability of the Multibit DACs to resolve micro details. They are quite revealing, without sounding sterile or overly crisp.

Also, nice to see paragraphs Tony. You've come a long way sir...

 

[tonykaz]

Hello mikoss,
 
At times I only have a tiny keypad to peck out bullet points.
 
plus, I'm nearly blind so composing properly whilst in a time constraint creates brevity. 
 
My official communications would have one or two editors putting on a nice flowing polish to things.
 
I am typically coming or going a long way but that work is nearly tapered down, I'm having time for Tony now, except for my wife needing constant attention.
 
Tony in Michigan
 
ps.  Canada is wonderful!  

 

[atomicbob]

  <edit>
 
PS - I know you were referring to end-user playback equipment induced noise, but the presence of hiss is reassuring if it is present on the original recording.  There's nothing worse than those remasters that have been "de-noised" with noise reduction and have had the life and air sucked out of them!...

Oh, I totally agree. If the tape hiss from the original session is present, I'd rather that then even the best of de-noisers (Cedar comes to mind.) Yes, I am referring to the playback system not adding anything to the original recording.

 

[Nalor]

   
 
 
Both very good points for everyone to note. Indeed, long listening sessions to Sound Pressure Levels (SPL) above 85 dB is a recipe for hearing loss. I prefer to gain stage my setup for 78 dB SPL average, 88 dB SPL peak listening and let the DAC have an exceedingly black background, very low noise floor, for most of my listening. Occasionally I allow myself some higher levels for brief periods.
 
Unfortunately I have observed some others that listen at much higher levels, and this concerns me for their long term hearing ability.

And then you forget the high transient in the recording, have the volume raised for those mostly quiet passages... then boom! Happens too many times for me.

 

[tonykaz]

Tape Hiss and all the other little things like rumble and stage noises that one can hear are fascinating.  
 
I was just listening to a Jascha Heifetz recording from 1959 where all manner of sounds were captured on the released recording, a Joshua Bell recording of the same music from 2013 seems wonderfully clean by comparison. Both are delightful!   
 
It seems magical to me that I can reproduce these musical experiences at such a low cost, it would've cost a fortune to have this capability 30 years ago and I can still have it whilst sitting in an Airport Lounge or a Park Bench overlooking the Bosphorus Straights. 
 
I wonder what it would be like to be selling AK240 digital players to my customers back in 1984? ( for $3,000 ),  could a Conrad-Johnson Premiere Amp or Preamp survive that kind of competition? 
 
The next two years are going to get exciting for us Audiophiles if this last year is any indication ( I think it is ).
 
Tony in Michigan

 

[ahnafakeef]

Hello everyone. Do Gungnirs come with XLR cables? Thank you.

 

[sheldaze]

  Hello everyone. Do Gungnirs come with XLR cables? Thank you.

Just the DAC and a power cord.

 

[ahnafakeef]

 
Just the DAC and a power cord.

Bummer. I didn't order XLR cables but just figured out that I should be running balanced and not single-ended for the best performance.
 
Sorry for the rant. Thank you for the prompt response. Much appreciated.