[johnjen]

If I may, 20 bit resolution provides just over a million different sample values (or "codes") as per Baldr. In math speak, 2 to the 20th power or 2 times itself 20 times (1,048,567)

Yeah that was my assumption as well, still the use of the term "codes" could imply additional depth to the meaning.
And this quote has me wondering…

snip…The gain system unit I built for Mobile Fidelity was based on no missing codes at a 16 bit level some 20 years ago. Today state of the art SAR A/D with no missing codes for a proper low slope anti-aliasing filter is 20 bit. No missing codes is a must. Anything else, is a misrepresentation.

How can you have "missing" codes?

JJ :atsmile:

 

[cstjean]

Can someone explain, in simple enough terms, for what reason would someone choose a multibit DAC vs a delta-sigma DAC?  Is it quite simply if you have the budget, get the multibit, or is it more complicated and based on what I'm connecting it to?
 
For example, I've been wanting to upgrade my home DAC (Audioengine D1) which powers my HiFiMan EF-5 and my HiFiMan HE-500.  If I spend the extra money to go multibit, will my equipment benefit?

 

[MrSlim]

Yeah that was my assumption as well, still the use of the term "codes" could imply additional depth to the meaning.

And this quote has me wondering…

How can you have "missing" codes?



JJ

 


I'm paraphrasing here, and you can google Delta-Sigma(DS) vs Multibit Digital to Analog conversion to verify, but from what I understand, DS takes some shortcuts(interpolation) to come up with the shape of the analog waveform, and doing so, throws away some of the original codes in the process, which can have an effect on the final sound quality.

The main issue is that DS chips are sooo much cheaper to make and since they may get you to 95% of the way to the result that Multibit provides, it became a way to provide "pretty good" sound at a much lower cost. 95% is an arbitrary number that I pulled out of the air, but as in the whole law of diminishing returns thing.

 

[joespride]

  Can someone explain, in simple enough terms, for what reason would someone choose a multibit DAC vs a delta-sigma DAC?  Is it quite simply if you have the budget, get the multibit, or is it more complicated and based on what I'm connecting it to?
 
For example, I've been wanting to upgrade my home DAC (Audioengine D1) which powers my HiFiMan EF-5 and my HiFiMan HE-500.  If I spend the extra money to go multibit, will my equipment benefit?

This is subjective and the only person that can answer it is YOU,  I personally prefer the more analog SQ of NOS and Multibit
 
There are tons of tech speak about the benefits of both and the pit falls of both,  You will basically have to try them to see what SQ you prefer
 
For the dacs I have personally tried I found the delta sigma types were more detail oriented and brighter, and the NOS Multibits offered a warmer SQ while still offering detail retrieval although not to the level of the delta sigma

 

[MrSlim]

Can someone explain, in simple enough terms, for what reason would someone choose a multibit DAC vs a delta-sigma DAC?  Is it quite simply if you have the budget, get the multibit, or is it more complicated and based on what I'm connecting it to?


 


For example, I've been wanting to upgrade my home DAC (Audioengine D1) which powers my HiFiMan EF-5 and my HiFiMan HE-500.  If I spend the extra money to go multibit, will my equipment benefit?

 



Check out some of the opinions here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/693798/thoughts-on-a-bunch-of-dacs-and-why-delta-sigma-kinda-sucks-just-to-get-you-to-think-about-stuff

Remember, I said "opinions"...

 

[cstjean]

  This is subjective and the only person that can answer it is YOU,  I personally prefer the more analog SQ of NOS and Multibit
 
There are tons of tech speak about the benefits of both and the pit falls of both,  You will basically have to try them to see what SQ you prefer
 
For the dacs I have personally tried I found the delta sigma types were more detail oriented and brighter, and the NOS Multibits offered a warmer SQ while still offering detail retrieval although not to the level of the delta sigma

Fair enough, I don't know of any local place that I can test out the two so I will have to research that.  I guess I meant more from a technical point of view would I need a higher end amp to leverage what the DAC outputs, I'm guessing it's completely irrelevant though (still learning)?

 

[nobusuke]

Bifrost Multibit upgrade complete.
Installed and sounding good.
 
Questions (perhaps for Mike or Jason):
  - Why 1 minute of "boot" time?  (My recollection of plain-old-Bifrost Uber was "instant" on.)
  - Is rotating LEDs at boot only external indication of upgrade?
 
I'm sorry if these questions were answered elsewhere... I couldn't track them down.

 

[billerb1]

Does anyone perceive a slight edge to the Multibit ?  


 


My reason for the Multibit purchase was to compare it to MHDT Havana, IMHO they sound more the same than different, but 1 thing stood out after approx 4 hours on Bifrost with a few breaks I began to experience some fatigue


 


Putting the Havana back in the loop and the fatigue resided and no further perception of edginess


 


I am sure with a different system this would likely be non existant but my setup,  JRMC > Dac > ampsandsound Kenzie Headphone amp > Sennheiser HD800, is pulling it out


 


Anyone ?

 



I only have the original Bifrost and Uber Bifrost for comparison. Based on that this is a weightier, somewhat smoother and more sophisticated presentation, especially through the upper mids and treble. In my case, listening through Beyer T1's and Woo WA2, definitely LESS fatiguing. And definitely more engaging. A bigger sound in size...more in depth than width...but despite the size more intimate in my opinion than it's Uber counterpart. I couldn't be happier. But obviously this is subjective and I'm sure impressions vary.

 

[joespride]

I can certainly understand your impressions, and could easily see how the multibit would sound great in some set ups..................I suppose the best way to say it is
 
The Schiit Bifrost Multibit is not a fit in my system sound preference wise, though it does offer an upgrade in sound above previous versions of Bifrost

 

[johnjen]

JJ

 


I'm paraphrasing here, and you can google Delta-Sigma(DS) vs Multibit Digital to Analog conversion to verify, but from what I understand, DS takes some shortcuts(interpolation) to come up with the shape of the analog waveform, and doing so, throws away some of the original codes in the process, which can have an effect on the final sound quality.

The main issue is that DS chips are sooo much cheaper to make and since they may get you to 95% of the way to the result that Multibit provides, it became a way to provide "pretty good" sound at a much lower cost. 95% is an arbitrary number that I pulled out of the air, but as in the whole law of diminishing returns thing.

Yeah, I understand.

Still those codes from the D/S - S/D chipsets aren't missing, they're just different, due to the successive approximations (iterative loops etc.) that they use.

still have a :headscratch smilie here…

JJ

 

[johnjen]

I can certainly understand your impressions, and could easily see how the multibit would sound great in some set ups..................I suppose the best way to say it is

The Schiit Bifrost Multibit is not a fit in my system sound preference wise, though it does offer an upgrade in sound above previous versions of Bifrost

Think of it this way…

By sending it back, you increase the possibility that someone who really wants their Bimby in black,
will get one…

JJ :atsmile:

 

[joespride]

Think of it this way…

By sending it back, you increase the possibility that someone who really wants their Bimby in black,
will get one…

JJ

I Don't follow the logic,  I have the RMA but offered it via classifieds with the same savings to members IE.... they save what I would loose due to shipping and restock fees and get the brand new unit...............If I get no interest within a couple days I will send it back and wait on the refund

 

[MrSlim]

Yeah, I understand.



Still those codes from the D/S - S/D chipsets aren't missing, they're just different, due to the successive approximations (iterative loops etc.) that they use.



still have a :headscratch smilie here…



JJ

 


True, but that is Mr Moffat's point.. "they're different"... and are different enough to make a difference in the sound quality. There are of course the other differences, such as the standard set of filters that each DS chip provides, vs the SuperMega Combo Burrito filter, so its not just D/S vs Multibit, it's also the secret sauce in the filter..

 

[johnjen]

Yeah, I understand.

Still those codes from the D/S - S/D chipsets aren't missing, they're just different, due to the successive approximations (iterative loops etc.) that they use.

still have a :headscratch smilie here…

JJ

 


True, but that is Mr Moffat's point.. "they're different"... and are different enough to make a difference in the sound quality. There are of course the other differences, such as the standard set of filters that each DS chip provides, vs the SuperMega Combo Burrito filter, so its not just D/S vs Multibit, it's also the secret sauce in the filter..

All true!

Which leads me to why I asked the question…

What is different about his use of "codes" it would seem to me should be significant in further understanding, or at least gaining more insight into, the "SuperMega Combo Burrito filter".

Curious minds and all. :atsmile:

JJ

 

[kstuart]

True, but that is Mr Moffat's point.. "they're different"... and are different enough to make a difference in the sound quality. There are of course the other differences, such as the standard set of filters that each DS chip provides, vs the SuperMega Combo Burrito filter, so its not just D/S vs Multibit, it's also the secret sauce in the filter..

It's worth noting that there is no upsampling on 24/176.4 or 24/192 files, so in those cases the "Burrito" filter is not used.
 
If you are using a Schiit Multibit DAC to play DSD/SACD files, then your player is converting them to 24/176.4, so you can say that SACD and 24/192 files are not using the filter.
 
In those cases, the multibit DAC is the whole difference.