Schiit Fire and Save Matches! Bifrost Multibit is Here.
Jan 9, 2016 at 3:34 PM Post #1,546 of 2,799
In my experience,

UpSampling is when you take data at a given sample rate and convert it to be the same data at a higher sampling rate. It's a digital to digital process.

OverSampling is when you sample some data at a rate greater than its frequency (greater than 2x/nyquist for sure) in order to try and reproduce that data accurately (accurately enough anyway) later. It's an analog to digital process.
 
Jan 9, 2016 at 4:33 PM Post #1,547 of 2,799
 
Oh there are a Few of us who have asked for that. I was floored when I looked for bigger passive pre amps like the sys that not many exist. The ones I found where way over priced.


I'm currently using a Sys with my Bimby in my speaker based office setup at work.  Nice unit for an incredibly low price.  The only weakness is that at very low volumes Sys can be unbalanced (as I use this at work, my listening is at low volume).  I just purchased a Luminous Audio Axiom II passive pre and I'll see how it compares to the Sys this week.  I think the Axiom II is very reasonably priced.
 
Jan 10, 2016 at 5:47 AM Post #1,548 of 2,799
I'll take a stab at this too. Again, I will probably get some technical details wrong, or leave some out, but the general idea should be correct. Someone will probably tell me if I'm way off base.

So we've got our mulit-bit DAC and we're ready to feed CD audio to it at 44.1kHz sampling rate. Meaning 44,100 samples per second go to the DAC to then be transformed into an analog output waveform which we can then hear via our audio equipment. But there's a problem already before we even get started. It's called aliasing. Aliasing in digital audio shows up as high frequencies, above the normal cut off frequency, which aren't part of the music or the original signal. This aliasing is "noise" for all intents; it's not helpful. In a 44.1kHz system, this noise shows up above 44.1k / 2 = 22.05 kHz.

Early DACs (in CD players) used a very steep analog filter on the output which would dramatically reduce the output of the DAC at 22.05 kHz (and up from there). These filters are very, very steep. So they were nicknamed "brick wall filters" because that's what the graph looks like: A wall starting at the cut off frequency. The problem with these brick wall filters is, they introduce phase shifts. These phase shifts reach back past the cutoff point, into the audible band from 20kHz and down. Phase is related to time, so these phase shifts can also be thought of as time shifts, or time errors. Some call this "smearing" the time or phase. Whatever you call it, it's not what you want if you want a "true" signal coming out of your DAC.

So how do you fix this? One way of fixing it, is up sampling or oversampling. There's a technical difference between the two terms, which I honestly don't completely understand. Here's what you need to know: In this context, it means changing the sampling rate from 44.1 kHz UP to a higher frequency like 88.2 kHz, or even 176.4 kHz. Once you have your audio at this new higher sample rate, the aliasing noise gets shifted up to a higher frequency. ...and now we can use a filter at a high enough frequency that no phase shift gets back into the frequency band we can hear. By the time you get to 20kHz, there is no phase shift at all.

But how do we do this oversampling? By adding in more samples. If you go from 44.1 kHz to 88.2 kHz, you have to double the number of samples. If you go from 44.1 to 176.4 you have to have 4 times as many samples.

Well, how do you do *that*? You make up the samples by estimating or "guessing". You can't just repeat the samples, that wouldn't work. You have to interpolate between the existing samples and make up new data points that seem to fit in correctly. Simple averaging won't work either; that would make the waveforms start to look like triangle waves.

There are several ways of doing this and frankly I don't understand the math. I *do* know that (almost) every method of up sampling (oversampling) digital data involves successive approximation, which means multiplying each sample by some values, which transform those samples to new values. Pay attention here, this is the important part: As I understand it, this process throws away every single sample that is fed into it. Let's say you feed in 1 second of data, which is 44,100 samples. At the output you get 88,200 samples. How many of the 44,100 from the input get to the output untouched? I would have expected that all of them got through. But I would be WRONG about that. NONE of them make it through. All 88,200 samples that come out of this process are brand new. Unless I'm wrong about this (and I don't think I am) this is mind blowing. Upsampling (oversampling) destroys all of the original data!

This is how nearly every multi-bit DAC works. Very early DACs used an analog brick wall filter. All of the later ones used oversampling as I described above. Remember up above when I said that *almost* every method of oversampling throws away the original samples? I said that because ONE oversampling method does not throw away the samples. That method is Schiit's proprietary "megacombo burrito filter". The Mega filter uses math that is able to do these interpolations, to make up the new samples we need for our higher sampling rate, but it also keeps all of the original samples intact. So we get our upsampled data, but we also KEEP all of the original data too. When we feed 44,100 samples in, and get (for example) 176,400 out, all 44,100 of the original samples are included in the output. Intact. Unaltered.

The benefits of this are beyond my current technical understanding. Mike Moffat says that keeping the original samples preserves the timing information in the music. Timing information that would otherwise be altered by a conventional successive approximation upsampling method. I'm inclined to believe Mr. Moffat as his technical knowledge on this subject dwarfs mine. He's also devoted a huge chunk of his time (and his life) to developing this method and this math. So it's obviously rather important to him.

So that's it: The Megacombo burrito filter preserves all original samples when doing oversampling so that we can use our multi-bit DAC (at a high sample rate) and a gentle (non-brick wall) filter to remove aliasing noise, and not affect the audible band of frequencies.

Brian.

That was incredibly helpful! Thank you so much for taking the time to explain that. I think the description on the Schiit site assumes the reader has some sort of knowledge about how the 'prior to MCB (megacomboburrito)' DACs work and I certainly didn't.

Shifting the noise by oversampling keeps the noise and phase shift out of the audible frequency range and the MCB keeps the original samples intact.
 
Jan 10, 2016 at 6:08 AM Post #1,549 of 2,799
 
I'm currently using a Sys with my Bimby in my speaker based office setup at work.  Nice unit for an incredibly low price.  The only weakness is that at very low volumes Sys can be unbalanced (as I use this at work, my listening is at low volume).  I just purchased a Luminous Audio Axiom II passive pre and I'll see how it compares to the Sys this week.  I think the Axiom II is very reasonably priced.


I use a SYS as well. Actually there are two in the house. But when You have 3 or 4 sources. It gets Cumbersome. The Axioms Base Model only has one Input?
 
Jan 10, 2016 at 8:55 AM Post #1,550 of 2,799
Dumb question, but how much of a difference would I experience going from the HRT MusicStreamer ii+ to the Schiit Bifrost Multibit? I just upgraded to an amp I like (not a Schiit amp, but that's just because of cost/performance and adaptability issues) and I think the next upgrade should be to the DAC, since it's circa 2010/2011. I'm running HE-500 headphones and the amp upgrade made quite a bit of difference, but I'm very disturbed that DS DACs throw out all the original samples and I think the value/price ratio of BiMBy is pretty amaze-balls.
 
Jan 10, 2016 at 9:14 AM Post #1,551 of 2,799
Quote:Originally Posted by disastermouse /img/forum/go_quote.gif
  Dumb question, but how much of a difference would I experience going from the HRT MusicStreamer ii+ to the Schiit Bifrost Multibit? I just upgraded to an amp I like (not a Schiit amp, but that's just because of cost/performance and adaptability issues) and I think the next upgrade should be to the DAC, since it's circa 2010/2011. I'm running HE-500 headphones and the amp upgrade made quite a bit of difference, but I'm very disturbed that DS DACs throw out all the original samples and I think the value/price ratio of BiMBy is pretty amaze-balls.

 
I am not using your equipment therefore cannot give a definitive answer, however, what i have found is all formats / sample rates sounded better thru bimby and source types too,  wether it was PC, Mac, hard drive player or CD transport and/or music on youtube. not just better like soundstage or some other hifi audiophile terminology but more musical less distortion more emotional communication even fun, in some reproductions you can even feel the atmosphere the venue was generating. maybe i am just schiit fanboi with out any objectivity but the upgradeitis has been subjugated since the upgrade to MB
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Jan 10, 2016 at 9:35 AM Post #1,552 of 2,799
   
I am not using your equipment therefore cannot give a definitive answer, however, what i have found is all formats / sample rates sounded better thru bimby and source types too,  wether it was PC, Mac, hard drive player or CD transport and/or music on youtube. not just better like soundstage or some other hifi audiophile terminology but more musical less distortion more emotional communication even fun, in some reproductions you can even feel the atmosphere the venue was generating. maybe i am just schiit fanboi with out any objectivity but the upgradeitis has been subjugated since the upgrade to MB
biggrin.gif


I know this does not help the answer the original question but this would basically be my response. Upgradeitis of  DAC's have subsided until I decide to jump head first into the balanced topology more.
 
Jan 10, 2016 at 9:40 AM Post #1,553 of 2,799
I know this does not help the answer the original question but this would basically be my response. Upgradeitis of  DAC's have subsided until I decide to jump head first into the balanced topology more.

Balanced is off the table for me for a while anyway. The amp I upgraded to is SE and all my headphones are still SE.
 
Jan 10, 2016 at 9:55 AM Post #1,554 of 2,799
Balanced is off the table for me for a while anyway. The amp I upgraded to is SE and all my headphones are still SE.


The people who have compared the Bifrost MB and the Gungnir MB say that in SE mode both sound very close. There are some who compared the Bifrost MB to the fabled Theta Dacs and said it comes pretty close to them as well( I guess the theory is that the theta has a higher output voltage contributes to it having the edge of the Bifrost MB.)I am in your boat I run all SE gear so the extra expense would not be worth it at this point. The Fact that the Bifrost MB is gets close to an Old legend and at least on the SE side of things a Close to DAC twice its price (Gungnir MB) speaks volumes to what it is capable of.
 
All that yammering and you still have not gotten an answer to your question.
 
Jan 10, 2016 at 9:59 AM Post #1,555 of 2,799
The people who have compared the Bifrost MB and the Gungnir MB say that in SE mode both sound very close. There are some who compared the Bifrost MB to the fabled Theta Dacs and said it comes pretty close to them as well( I guess the theory is that the theta has a higher output voltage contributes to it having the edge of the Bifrost MB.)I am in your boat I run all SE gear so the extra expense would not be worth it at this point. The Fact that the Bifrost MB is gets close to an Old legend and at least on the SE side of things a Close to DAC twice its price (Gungnir MB) speaks volumes to what it is capable of.

All that yammering and you still have not gotten an answer to your question.

My first DAC was a 'baby's first DAC' E7. I've been running the MSii+ since then. I don't know what sorts of differences DACs make beyond the basic. I just don't like that the music I'm hearing isn't the music recorded.
 
Jan 10, 2016 at 1:58 PM Post #1,556 of 2,799
Upsampling and oversampling are the same things. An oversampling DAC does the brick wall filter in the digital domain instead of the analog domain because you can do it there with fewer side effects. Schiit's filter is one kind of digital brick wall filter, but it's not the only kind of filter that will preserve the original samples. However, that's not its only feature: Mike mentions that it also does its own kind of of time and frequency domain optimization, and that it has a closed form solution to its interpolation.
 
Jan 10, 2016 at 3:32 PM Post #1,558 of 2,799
Except that they aren't. They are very different operations.

Can you explain the difference? I'm trying to educate myself and the less technical explainations for R2R multibit and the comboburrito were helpful.
 
Jan 10, 2016 at 3:52 PM Post #1,559 of 2,799
I am not using your equipment therefore cannot give a definitive answer, however, what i have found is all formats / sample rates sounded better thru bimby and source types too,  wether it was PC, Mac, hard drive player or CD transport and/or music on youtube. not just better like soundstage or some other hifi audiophile terminology but more musical less distortion more emotional communication even fun, in some reproductions you can even feel the atmosphere the venue was generating. maybe i am just schiit fanboi with out any objectivity but the upgradeitis has been subjugated since the upgrade to MB:D
While I don't know if I'd call myself a Schiit fanboy even though I've got quite a few of their products. My first listen with the bimby was definitely a holy schiit moment. I was a Dac skeptic before that.
 
Jan 10, 2016 at 4:13 PM Post #1,560 of 2,799
While I don't know if I'd call myself a Schiit fanboy even though I've got quite a few of their products. My first listen with the bimby was definitely a holy schiit moment. I was a Dac skeptic before that.

What's the rest of your setup? On mobile and not seeing signatures.
 

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