[Hyde00]

Oh so I'm staring really hard at a post about Bifrost 2/64 card, on the fence of pulling the trigger despite I only have single ended so it's a slight waste of potential.

Alas it's what it is, anyway still sitting on the fence.

While I'm sitting here I have a question. I bought my BF2 OG second hand, and I noticed it came with NOS mode (seller left it on NOS). Does that mean it's already flashed to the newest firmware? Assuming if I get the Bifrost 2/64 card would I need to flash it again?

Also is there a way to check what firmware I'm on?

EDIT: Oh figure I'd explain a bit, my hope to upgrade to 2/64 is because with my current chain (Lyr 3 + Lawton TH900) the bass is a bit too thick so it feels slightly congested. I'm hoping going to 2/64 I'll get more air and also slightly forward vocal, is this realistic?

A bit more "live performance" kind of feel. Thing as is feels slightly drown out by the bass and thickness. Thanks!

 

[mjstealey]

Oh so I'm staring really hard at a post about Bifrost 2/64 card, on the fence of pulling the trigger despite I only have single ended so it's a slight waste of potential.

Alas it's what it is, anyway still sitting on the fence.

While I'm sitting here I have a question. I bought my BF2 OG second hand, and I noticed it came with NOS mode (seller left it on NOS). Does that mean it's already flashed to the newest firmware? Assuming if I get the Bifrost 2/64 card would I need to flash it again?

Also is there a way to check what firmware I'm on?

EDIT: Oh figure I'd explain a bit, my hope to upgrade to 2/64 is because with my current chain (Lyr 3 + Lawton TH900) the bass is a bit too thick so it feels slightly congested. I'm hoping going to 2/64 I'll get more air and also slightly forward vocal, is this realistic?

A bit more "live performance" kind of feel. Thing as is feels slightly drown out by the bass and thickness. Thanks!

Sounds like the previous owner had already updated the firmware if you're seeing NOS mode
- slow "breathing" LED light after holding the button for 5-ish seconds when in NOS mode
- solid LED light when in MCB mode.

Card swap video attached for reference


A new 2/64 card should come with the micro-SD card and firmware, but if not you can download it from the Bifrost Downloads tab

Not having your setup, or ears, I cannot say if things would sound more like a "live performance" ... but for me the 2/64 did have more air in it's presentation and sounded leaner than the 2. That said it didn't sound as organic to me... Nothing bad to say about the 2/64 card, but overall I preferred the thickness of the OG 2 sound in my setup.

Different chip sets, different manufactures (AD vs TI), and the only way you are going to really know is by hopping off the fence

 

[Hyde00]

- slow "breathing" LED light after holding the button for 5-ish seconds when in NOS mode
- solid LED light when in MCB mode.

lol yes I noticed it because I had MMB2 before and it also had NOS mode.

And on BF2 OG surprisingly I like NOS mode over MCB mode.

A new 2/64 card should come with the micro-SD card and firmware, but if not you can download it from the Bifrost Downloads tab

Yes the seller I'm looking at do have the included SD card that come with the 2/64 card, but just figure I'd check with you guys just in case.

That said it didn't sound as organic to me... Nothing bad to say about the 2/64 card, but overall I preferred the thickness of the OG 2 sound in my setup.

Different chip sets, different manufactures (AD vs TI), and the only way you are going to really know is by hopping off the fence

LOL I've already blown my budget by buying BF2 this month that's why I'm still stuck on the fence LOL. It's a very expensive fence to hop. Maybe soon.....

Thanks for the advice though!

 

[Currawong]

Here's a good presentation as to the kinds of issues that can crop up with digital transmission that can affect the analog output of a DAC, based on actual research and experience. It might explain why the different inputs of the Bifrost sound slightly different.

 

[Jbucla2005]

I have a Bifrost 2/64, and wanted to report an issue I was having for a while which has been fixed. My unit was randomly shutting down and also not working upon start up and I would have to shut it off and turn it back on to get it to work. On some days it would happen 4 or 5 times before it would start working. Instead of sending it to Schiit I took the card out and put it back in, and since then it has worked perfectly!

I prefer the NOS mode for music, and the filtered mode for dialogue and movies.

 

[Jbucla2005]

How are you using the outputs of your Bifrost 2/64? Instead of using the balanced output to send a balanced signal out, I use XLR -> RCA adaptors and plug in RCA cables so I can have a second set of outputs to feed another single-ended amp.

 

[theeclone]

Here's a good presentation as to the kinds of issues that can crop up with digital transmission that can affect the analog output of a DAC, based on actual research and experience. It might explain why the different inputs of the Bifrost sound slightly different.

Definitely interesting, though I think it should be pointed out that this is coming from an engineer whose company sells DACs (Chord), and who claims that they're 100% immune from jitter. As I mentioned, there are other DAC manufacturers who have different design approaches for minimizing jitter and who believe jitter is still an issue in modern DACs.

The point Ted at PS Audio has made many times is that we're not necessarily concerned with what we might call "transport jitter" (jitter happening over a toslink or USB connection), but rather jitter right at the point of conversion to analog (having to do with phase noise in the clock signal that feeds the DAC chip itself).

The thing I never understood about this new line of discussion around the effects of noise on DACs is, why when we see that noise making its way into the analog section of a DAC, do we conclude that that same noise is not making its way into the analog clock signal that's directly feeding the DAC chip? Why would noise discriminate against one particular analog waveform and not another?

Also, in this video, it's claimed that toslink is the best connection. Interestingly IIRC another engineer's opinion (Mike Moffat, the designer of this thread's namesake) believes toslink is not so great.

It makes sense that engineers disagree on this stuff. As Mike Moffat has pointed out, sometimes engineers are out in front of the established science of the day.

 

[2ndWedge]

Definitely interesting, though I think it should be pointed out that this is coming from an engineer whose company sells DACs (Chord), and who claims that they're 100% immune from jitter. As I mentioned, there are other DAC manufacturers who have different design approaches for minimizing jitter and who believe jitter is still an issue in modern DACs.

The point Ted at PS Audio has made many times is that we're not necessarily concerned with what we might call "transport jitter" (jitter happening over a toslink or USB connection), but rather jitter right at the point of conversion to analog (having to do with phase noise in the clock signal that feeds the DAC chip itself).

The thing I never understood about this new line of discussion around the effects of noise on DACs is, why when we see that noise making its way into the analog section of a DAC, do we conclude that that same noise is not making its way into the analog clock signal that's directly feeding the DAC chip? Why would noise discriminate against one particular analog waveform and not another?

Also, in this video, it's claimed that toslink is the best connection. Interestingly IIRC another engineer's opinion (Mike Moffat, the designer of this thread's namesake) believes toslink is not so great.

It makes sense that engineers disagree on this stuff. As Mike Moffat has pointed out, sometimes engineers are out in front of the established science of the day.

Yes, I remember Mike's comment so avoided Toslink. As a result of Rob Watts presentation I decided to give it a try between a Bluesound Node and an old Modi and a WiiM Pro Plus and a brand new Modi. Improvements occurred with both setups. I am astonished. I was using an Eitr into the Modi from the Node but this is just as good, even Van Morrison's voice is smooth. And now I have all the full functionality of the Node back. With the WiiM I was just slightly leaning toward the Modi with a coax connection but now the difference is obvious. As an aside I wonder if Schiit is experimenting with the new AKM chips and I wish they would hire a summer student to complete the Wiki entry re Schiit models (and serial numbers) versus what chips they used as I have been collecting Schiit products for 10 years and have lost track. P.S. my Bifrost off the Mac Mini fed by Audirvana Studio stays with USB, no complaints there. So maybe optical works best with the under $200 Dacs?

 

[theeclone]

Interestingly, I conducted a bit of an experiment the other day involving toslink. I had two raspberry pi 5's, one with the pi2aes hat; and one with a FIFO/reclocker HAT feeding an i2s HAT, both Ian Canada HATs.

The pi2aes fed my DAC with toslink, and the i2s HAT fed the i2s hdmi input of that same DAC. Both had the same airplay receiver software running with identical configurations. Both were streamed to from the same MacBook.

The result when switching between the two inputs on my DAC was that I preferred the i2s input. The toslink actually sounded harsher and less warm; the opposite of what's supposed to happen according to the Chord engineer. Since toslink avoids sending noise to the DAC via a cable, what else could this be attributed to but jitter?

 

[Rattle]

Toslink always sounds like ass, I only use it for non 2 channel audio applications.

 

[Currawong]

Definitely interesting, though I think it should be pointed out that this is coming from an engineer whose company sells DACs (Chord), and who claims that they're 100% immune from jitter. As I mentioned, there are other DAC manufacturers who have different design approaches for minimizing jitter and who believe jitter is still an issue in modern DACs.

The point Ted at PS Audio has made many times is that we're not necessarily concerned with what we might call "transport jitter" (jitter happening over a toslink or USB connection), but rather jitter right at the point of conversion to analog (having to do with phase noise in the clock signal that feeds the DAC chip itself).

The thing I never understood about this new line of discussion around the effects of noise on DACs is, why when we see that noise making its way into the analog section of a DAC, do we conclude that that same noise is not making its way into the analog clock signal that's directly feeding the DAC chip? Why would noise discriminate against one particular analog waveform and not another?

Also, in this video, it's claimed that toslink is the best connection. Interestingly IIRC another engineer's opinion (Mike Moffat, the designer of this thread's namesake) believes toslink is not so great.

It makes sense that engineers disagree on this stuff. As Mike Moffat has pointed out, sometimes engineers are out in front of the established science of the day.

Not quite. He said, in effect, that his components are immune to source jitter (4:30 or so in the video). You should definitely repost this comment in the Watts Up thread and discuss it with the man himself. The issues discussed here don't really apply to the way Rob designs his DACs, as they are radically different to the way Mike (or near anyone else) does. The point of my posting the video was to point out that digital is not simply 0s and 1s (and, in actuality, not even a zero or a one in any physical form, except when we want to represent the state of a bit).

Regarding optical, on old multi-bit DACs, such as the legendary Marantz Project D-1 (which I had to refrain very hard from buying from my friend when I had it here) it indeed sounded like crap using an optical connection. The sound would become hard and harsh, presumably due to jitter. On the other hand, modern SD DACs tend to become soft, unfocussed, or "flat" sounding (ESS Tech!) if the clock quality isn't so good, or there is high jitter.

The Bifrost seems to sound a bit "hard" when I use USB direct from a computer*. Rob provides a reasonable explanation as to why that might be happening, despite isolation on both sides of the of the Unison USB. Mike likes the sound with Unison better than AES or other S/PDIF variations. Has he ever said what he means by "better"? Actually, has he ever clarified what "sounds like ass" means?

What I'm thinking is more relevant, is whether or not there might be a simple tweak that might improve the input without resorting to spending as much on a DDC as the DAC itself, when buying an Yggy LIM would be a better-value proposition. I don't think it's necessary, as the Unison input sounds fine as it is. The nice thing is that if Schiit improve on Unison in the future, the board swap will be easy.

*If it's any consolation, so too do Chord's portable components, due to the lack of USB isolation.

 

[theeclone]

Not quite. He said, in effect, that his components are immune to source jitter (4:30 or so in the video). You should definitely repost this comment in the Watts Up thread and discuss it with the man himself. The issues discussed here don't really apply to the way Rob designs his DACs, as they are radically different to the way Mike (or near anyone else) does. The point of my posting the video was to point out that digital is not simply 0s and 1s (and, in actuality, not even a zero or a one in any physical form, except when we want to represent the state of a bit).

Regarding optical, on old multi-bit DACs, such as the legendary Marantz Project D-1 (which I had to refrain very hard from buying from my friend when I had it here) it indeed sounded like crap using an optical connection. The sound would become hard and harsh, presumably due to jitter. On the other hand, modern SD DACs tend to become soft, unfocussed, or "flat" sounding (ESS Tech!) if the clock quality isn't so good, or there is high jitter.

The Bifrost seems to sound a bit "hard" when I use USB direct from a computer*. Rob provides a reasonable explanation as to why that might be happening, despite isolation on both sides of the of the Unison USB. Mike likes the sound with Unison better than AES or other S/PDIF variations. Has he ever said what he means by "better"? Actually, has he ever clarified what "sounds like ass" means?

What I'm thinking is more relevant, is whether or not there might be a simple tweak that might improve the input without resorting to spending as much on a DDC as the DAC itself, when buying an Yggy LIM would be a better-value proposition. I don't think it's necessary, as the Unison input sounds fine as it is. The nice thing is that if Schiit improve on Unison in the future, the board swap will be easy.

*If it's any consolation, so too do Chord's portable components, due to the lack of USB isolation.

Fair enough, but he literally said, "With my DACs, jitter is simply not an issue." At the very least it's a bit confusing, if he means to say that they're immune from the source's jitter.

There are a lot of people who believe jitter is a complete non-issue in well-designed modern DACs when using a modern USB implementation, and I just like to point out that there are designers out there who don't agree. And theres tend to be the DACs I like.

Speaking of which, my DAC is pretty modern and I have noticed toslink sounding harsh compared to both USB and i2s on it. This was with CD-quality sound.

 

[little dot]

Hope someone can verify?
Just bought a used Bifrost 2, is this a Unison usb?

 

[tafens]

Hope someone can verify?
Just bought a used Bifrost 2, is this a Unison usb?

Yes, all Bifrost2 have Unison, there has never been any other option.

 

[Hyde00]

Hope someone can verify?
Just bought a used Bifrost 2, is this a Unison usb?

https://www.schiit.com/products/bifrost

According to the picture from Schiit website, it seems to match.

Both says G10 USB v1.0 and also +3.3D.

Also as tafens stated, there's no USB options on Bifrost 2, so it should always come with Unison USB.