REVIEW - Yulong Audio Sabre DA8 Reference DAC

[teiki arii]

As Esprit said: HQplayer if you want to play DSD (by USB)...

 

 

[foxadn]

Thank you Teiki Arii.
 
I know there are different plugins available (e.g. Audirvana) so I was interested in learning if different plugins lead to different results with the latency when switching from DSD > PCM and PCM > DSD.

 

[Viper2005]

Hello all,

First of all thanks to the OP and participants for all the in-depth details covered in this thread.
This DAC looks really great for the price so I am considering buying it right now.

If I get it I would be interested in doing A/B listenings to compare PCM vs DSD.
To those of you guys who own the DA8, do you experiment any kind of lag from playing a PCM track to playing DSD?

From what I understand there is some low-level configuration that needs to be done in the IC's that should introduce a minimum delay switching from one format to the other, but in practical is it more like 1s, 5s, more, less?

Thank you for your help.

Yes there is a one second delay whenever it switches formats or bitrate or sampling frequency.. often sometimes cutting off the first half second or so of the next song.

 

[foxadn]

Thanks a lot Viper, that's exactly the stuff I was wondering about.
 
I also got a PM from KMSV to give me more info, thank you guys!

 

[marcob]

Hi guys.
I use the da8 on win (8) platform, and if there is a delay during switching, is less than 1 second, and absolutely without cut-in.
But, due to pop/glitch problem, and another one on dsd256 (and 512, unfortunately not available on the mac), I've tried to contact the (italian) importer first (the only answer I had was "send back the da8, we'll give you your money back, if you're not happy"), then Yulong directly, without a useful answer ("with my pc it functions"...).
I've a long list of mails, with a clear,brief, and in a good english, explanation of the problems, but it seems that Yulong people doesn't understand english, because they (he) answered (only twice) in a cryptic manner, writing about other things completely unrelated to my request. Of course, for the dsd256 they (and the same done by the importer) continued, with obstinate insistence, to send the same link to the jriver (old) and foobar da8 set up documentation, set up using DoP that prevents the use of dsd256

.
 
Tired of the situation, I've sent a mail to Amanero (which is the italian engineer of dac usb card, and drivers) to beg for help, and the owner was very gentle: in the fist approach, he gave me a newer, modified driver that offered a (little) glitch reduction (together with, possibly, a number of patches) , then asked me to send the da8 (Yulong never offered him a da8 to make some testing...) to make accurate testing, and, possibly, modify the card firmware.
Please note that the problems I found are present in every unit.
At present he (hopes to have) completely solved the pop/glitch problem, the ds256 one, and is working on dsd512 and another problem he found on Audirvana (not my player, but a backscratching .
My unit will come back with a modified firmware, but if anyone is interested, I'll ask for the possibility (not sure, maybe commercial/support problems...) to publish new driver, firmware and updating procedure (it assumes to jumper two pins on the card, so the da8 must be opened...).
 
What I try to emphasize is the complete absence of Yulong: they "promised" to another head-fier (who mailed them weeks ago) that they should contact Amanero... but no contact at all; the opinion of the head-fier is that they don't want to contact Amanero because the new products (one at the moment, and lower in class) have xmos. This is a possibility, but not a evidence of serious and professional support on a product not yet superseded.

 

[foxadn]

Hi Marcob,
 
Thanks a lot for this input. I totally understand your frustration...
Thumbs up for the guys at Amanero, too bad Yulong doesn't show as much dedication.
Please let us know if there is any public release of this firmware for the USB module.

 

[Khragon]

Sad to know Yulong support is lacking.. but it doesn't surprise me.  My next DAC sure won't be from an over sea company.

 

[marcob]

  Hi Marcob,
 
Thanks a lot for this input. I totally understand your frustration...
Thumbs up for the guys at Amanero, too bad Yulong doesn't show as much dedication.
Please let us know if there is any public release of this firmware for the USB module.

update: Amanero sent firmware+driver to Yulong, hopefully they will publish them with instructions...but I'm not sure, considering the premises.
To update current (on our, sorry yours unit) firmware it needs to open the unit and jumper two pins, to reset the card before updating; after this, any other firmware update will be done via a control program on the pc.
 
But, I'm quite sure that the files+instructions (not for da8 opening) will be available on the Amanero site (I don't know, at the moment, if in a Yulong style device or in a standard Amanero notation - but this last standard one is a warranty for future updates, and for us is simply a different device name).
 
In the next days I'll receive back my da8, and I'll redo (as requested by Amanero) all the tests; at present Amanero told me that the problems that I (plus other, with Elder's help) have signalled seem solved.
DSD256 (on win) is really optimized, that is, upsampling to dsd256 is "suggested". About DSD512, the card outputs the correct data but it seems that (probably) the long data path (at this high frequency) inside the remaining circuitry generates little noise.
 
ps yes, I was frustrated, because I'm not a rich audiophile, and paying 1149 euros for the unit, without "necessary" support (I was an IT engineer, and, simply, I can't conceive of the lack of support on something involving drivers and firmware) for me is too much.

 

[marcob]

  Sad to know Yulong support is lacking.. but it doesn't surprise me.  My next DAC sure won't be from an over sea company.

Yes, I wasn't surprise, also. But don't trust blindly on "local" companies, maybe I'm too much categorical, but I'm quite sure that each dac producer has support (in terms of fast bug fixing or new formats implementation) difficulties. Sometimes justifiable, but in most cases, specious.

 

[SidiousX]

Concerning this recent discussion / developement of yours i'd rather say, strange lays in different angle. Yulong claims that he optimised Amanero firmware / driver  for his DA8 purpose. Your experience concerning Amanero vs. Yulong response / support seems to tell different story. That might give some further thoughts. Still I truly believe in DAC's companies such as Yulong over their EU/US counterparts and wishing him all the best. Yet their their support per se clearly require some work, aswell as english language support.

 

[b0bb]

update: Amanero sent firmware+driver to Yulong, hopefully they will publish them with instructions...but I'm not sure, considering the premises.
To update current (on our, sorry yours unit) firmware it needs to open the unit and jumper two pins, to reset the card before updating; after this, any other firmware update will be done via a control program on the pc.

But, I'm quite sure that the files+instructions (not for da8 opening) will be available on the Amanero site (I don't know, at the moment, if in a Yulong style device or in a standard Amanero notation - but this last standard one is a warranty for future updates, and for us is simply a different device name).

The Amanero board that Yulong uses is customized.
Power to the USB interface comes from the DAC and not the USB bus.
This is something to check with Amanero before attempting a firmware upgrade

In the attached photo on the centre left corner note L1 on the board is removed that disables USB bus power.


You also need to solder the jumper pins on P3 to enable firmware upgrade (http://www.amanero.com/howto.htm)

 

[b0bb]

One other thing, the Amanero board in the Yulong identifies itself as a Yulong DAC,

If generic firmware replaces the custom Yulong firmware, it may show up as an Amanero Combo384 device after the update.
This can be very annoying.

Ask Amanero if the USB Device Descriptor Info can be fixed up in the firmware to make look it like a Yulong again after the update

 

[marcob]

One other thing, the Amanero board in the Yulong identifies itself as a Yulong DAC,

If generic firmware replaces the custom Yulong firmware, it may show up as an Amanero Combo384 device after the update.
This can be very annoying.

Ask Amanero if the USB Device Descriptor Info can be fixed up in the firmware to make look it like a Yulong again after the update

 If you read again my post, it is clear about pins short-circuit (necessary only for the first update, and soldering is not necessary) and device naming convention (and, as I wrote, I don't know which one, because, for me is exactly the same using one or another - btw asking Yulong for the update maybe it speeds up the procedure and solves your correct doubt about device name).
Of course it can be fixed in the firmware, and, consequently, in the driver.
Firmware is aware about power presence/absence.
So, apart from naming convention, no particular customization of the firmware.
 
I'll give you all the informations Amanero will send me.
Bye

 

[b0bb]

 If you read again my post, it is clear about pins short-circuit (necessary only for the first update, and soldering is not necessary)

A soldered connection is very low noise compared to tying a piece of wire into the hole for the jumpers. Noise may confuse the onboard processor making the firmware update unreliable.
My suggestion would be to solder in pin headers and place a shorting jumper cap over the appropriate pins.

and device naming convention (and, as I wrote, I don't know which one, because, for me is exactly the same using one or another - btw asking Yulong for the update maybe it speeds up the procedure and solves your correct doubt about device name).
Of course it can be fixed in the firmware, and, consequently, in the driver.
Firmware is aware about power presence/absence.
So, apart from naming convention, no particular customization of the firmware.

These are the behaviour characteristics of the standard firmware, the question is how much of this did Yulong change in their version.
Yulong changed the powering arrangement on the card so the PC host is not able to turn off power to the Amanero card, for example when the card is unplugged from the usb port it is still running as the DAC is supplying power.
It may interfere with the firmware update and any required power up reset if firmware is expecting a change in the powerstate during the update.

These are the kinds of questions and comments for Amanero or better yet Yulong

You mentioned Amanero gave the updated firmware to Yulong, I am hoping Yulong will make it available but the need to open up the DAC and physically jumper the Amanero board to load new firmware is an obstacle.

 

[marcob]

A soldered connection is very low noise compared to tying a piece of wire into the hole for the jumpers. Noise may confuse the onboard processor making the firmware update unreliable.
My suggestion would be to solder in pin headers and place a shorting jumper cap over the appropriate pins.
These are the behaviour characteristics of the standard firmware, the question is how much of this did Yulong change in their version.
Yulong changed the powering arrangement on the card so the PC host is not able to turn off power to the Amanero card, for example when the card is unplugged from the usb port it is still running as the DAC is supplying power.
It may interfere with the firmware update and any required power up reset if firmware is expecting a change in the powerstate during the update.

These are the kinds of questions and comments for Amanero or better yet Yulong

You mentioned Amanero gave the updated firmware to Yulong, I am hoping Yulong will make it available but the need to open up the DAC and physically jumper the Amanero board to load new firmware is an obstacle.

Just to be clear enough, what I'm writing about the usb card is exactly what I discuss directly (phone) with Amanero, particularly with the owner, also the developer of the card and software...
Of course you can make any kind of operation on the pins, but the short-circuit of them is requested for a short period of time to activate the reset of the firmware. Not the programming.
And, again, consider that this reset operation using a jumper is "una tantum" in the life of the dac, because after the update, any other one (including reset) will be controlled by a specific program.
Yulong doesn't change anything by itself. Simply, it can't... And this is not my opinion, is a matter of fact. The "customization" is done by Amanero, in terms of ID, nothing other.
 
About difficulties in opening the dac and so on, I agree with you, but this is a (bad) strategic decision of Yulong, not to include a button sequence to start a firmware reset. It is really simple, and a lot of other dac producers supply it. Maybe plausible if Yulong tested all the functions with every player in every weather condition and depending on the day of the week...but this is not the situation.
They wrote me (and I have the mail) that dsd256/512 were correctly played using the configuration they publish on the website...using DoP or wasapi. Possible? Maybe in another world. But if this is the testing scenario that Yulong uses... better they don't manage any kind of software.