Skylab
Reviewerus Prolificus
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Thank you for taking the time to read it, and to comment.
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And here is where I take serious issue with your comments. I have no issue with anyone's differences with my findings on sound, and I will not comment on your differences there - we all hear things differently. However, you also chose to attack my review in several ways I do find troubling, and those I will comment on. It is very surprising to me that you felt the need to be critical of the review itself, rather than the findings, and I disagree strongly with your criticism of the review methodology, which I will outline. But quite frankly, your motives are clearly still just to show that your view of the HD800 is the "correct" one, and as such, I wish you had kept the debate over the SOUND, like virtually everyone else who has posted in this thread. But you didn't, so here goes.
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I think you missed the point, which is simply this - $1,400 is a healthy amount of money to spend on a headphone, and such headphones should be held to high standards, IMO. This is not as preconceived notion of any kind, nor is it a bias - it's a very obvious thing, really.
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I did *NOT* say that if you own HD800's you are biased - you are reading that into my comments, and those are YOUR words, not mine. I wish you would refrain from such things - it's not right to criticize a review under your own conclusions of what it says, not what it actually says. In fact, I was very clear that to say, as you even posted, that it is NOT the case that owner's opinions are not valid. I simply said that *I* had no bias related to owning them. However, your whole reply to my thread shows that there is emotion in your thoughts related to your being an owner, and as such, you are helping to make my point that sometimes it does help to be able to review things that you do not own.
The vast majority of things I review I do not own when I review them, although sometimes I like them enough to buy them later. I have tended NOT to review things I buy just for my own enjoyment.
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Yes, I did explain this, in the review, you must have missed it. I match levels on all tests to exactly 80dbA using the Rives Test CD2, so that the level from the headphones is identical from each amp and source, and when comparative headphones are being evaluated. This is far more rigorous than any other head-fi reviewer I know of, and indeed than many "big magazine" reviewers.
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So because I didn't use your favorite amp, my findings are not valid? Again, you are trying to refute carefully arrived at results because you disagree with them. There is no need for that. You don't have to agree. But it's just silly to say that 9 amps is not a large enough sample. IT IS. I'm sure there are amps that will be rolled off enough in the treble to eliminate what I heard, but that doesn't mean that what I heard isn't there. Again, it's fine for everyone to LIKE their sound. But they HAVE a sound.
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Cost is definitely NOT my "make or break" factor. And I compared the HD800 to things I know very well, and whose sound I know very well, which is what EVERY other reviewer does, including in magazines. They compare to REFERENCES, not to identical products. Should I go out and PS-1000's just so I have another pair of similarly priced headphones to compare? I think not, and no reviewer would.
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I'm sorry, but you could have attacked the review endlessly in terms of disagreeing with the sound, and I would have said nothing, or would have welcomed your opinion. But attacking the reviews objectivity DOES in fact make me bristle, and I think I have the right to. I disagree strongly with your assertions in that regard, and I hope you can see my points why.
All that said, I have ALWAYS said, over and over again, that my findings are JUST MY OPINION. But the ways in which I claim to have arrived at my own opinion objectively are valid.
As for the list you compiled of people who disagree with my findings, the list is at least as long, if not longer, of people who do, and that is as we would expect - people who agree, and people who disagree. However, the fact that you even felt the need to compile it shows you are trying to emotionally defend your ownership of the HD800, and I just don't think that is needed. After all - my review of the HD800 was (as others have pointed out) overwhelmingly positive.
| Originally Posted by feifan /img/forum/go_quote.gif Skylab, I thoroughly enjoyed reading your review and the discussion that follows. Thank you very much for taking the time to write it. |
Thank you for taking the time to read it, and to comment.
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| Originally Posted by feifan /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've been debating with myself about posting a comment especially since what I have to say is somewhat critical. I've decided to speak out because I think my concerns are important for a forum that lives and dies by the written review. In the end, it's not what a writer says so much as how he says it that counts. For example, it doesn't matter if s/he praises or pisses on a product as long as he makes an effort to be objective, fair, and logical. |
And here is where I take serious issue with your comments. I have no issue with anyone's differences with my findings on sound, and I will not comment on your differences there - we all hear things differently. However, you also chose to attack my review in several ways I do find troubling, and those I will comment on. It is very surprising to me that you felt the need to be critical of the review itself, rather than the findings, and I disagree strongly with your criticism of the review methodology, which I will outline. But quite frankly, your motives are clearly still just to show that your view of the HD800 is the "correct" one, and as such, I wish you had kept the debate over the SOUND, like virtually everyone else who has posted in this thread. But you didn't, so here goes.
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| Originally Posted by feifan /img/forum/go_quote.gif Skylab, you say that you're approaching this review "with no pre-conceived notions," but you make it clear, especially in the conclusion, that the $1400 pricetag is the most critical factor in your review. Twice you use the phrase "in the context of a $1,400 headphone." You also say, "In the case of a headphone that costs $1,400, I think we have the right to expect a lot." Finally, you say, "I’m not going to be buying a pair, given that they cost $1,400." The point is that you've approached this review from the perspective of cost. You're measuring the HD800 against your preconceived notion of what a $1400 pair of cans ought to sound like. Thus, the review begs the question: What should a $1400 headphone sound like? Is there a $1400 SQ that you're aware of that we're not privy to? If yes, what is it? |
I think you missed the point, which is simply this - $1,400 is a healthy amount of money to spend on a headphone, and such headphones should be held to high standards, IMO. This is not as preconceived notion of any kind, nor is it a bias - it's a very obvious thing, really.
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| Originally Posted by feifan /img/forum/go_quote.gif Another point that you make regards objectivity. In your opening paragraph, you present the odd premise that ownership of a piece of equipment automatically discredits a reviewer's opinion. You claim that a non-owner, e.g., a borrower, is therefore more objective. You toss out an explanation that includes something about buyer "euphoria" and "remorse," but it doesn't come close to proving that owners are automatically biased. Take yourself, for example. You own much of the equipment used in your review -- headphones, amps, etc. And you use your judgment of their quality as a gauge to measure the HD800. Are you saying that because you own the equipment, we can't take your claims seriously? Yes or no, you're caught in a logical bind. Furthermore, you contradict yourself when you say, "Please note that I am NOT saying that the views of the people who own them are not valid, or any less valid than my opinion. ALL opinions are equally valid." But that's exactly what you say -- if you own the HD800, you can't be objective. |
I did *NOT* say that if you own HD800's you are biased - you are reading that into my comments, and those are YOUR words, not mine. I wish you would refrain from such things - it's not right to criticize a review under your own conclusions of what it says, not what it actually says. In fact, I was very clear that to say, as you even posted, that it is NOT the case that owner's opinions are not valid. I simply said that *I* had no bias related to owning them. However, your whole reply to my thread shows that there is emotion in your thoughts related to your being an owner, and as such, you are helping to make my point that sometimes it does help to be able to review things that you do not own.
The vast majority of things I review I do not own when I review them, although sometimes I like them enough to buy them later. I have tended NOT to review things I buy just for my own enjoyment.
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| Originally Posted by feifan /img/forum/go_quote.gif You also try to give us the impression that you've eliminated the effects of other gear such as sources and amps in your exhaustive tests, thus isolating the HD800's true qualities. You say, "I used 6 different sources (all with their own set of high-quality cables), 9 different amps, and lots and lots of the world's finest recordings." You say, "I believe this is more than sufficient to eliminate the other variables, and to decide what characteristics belong solely to the headphones themselves." I wonder. In any careful test, a clear explanation of methodology is criticial. How you obtained your data will determine the quality of your results. Yet you don't explain how you went about testing and how you decided on a fair range of equipment. If I remember correctly, threads on how best to compare head-fi equipment have always ended in tremendous controversy. Few if any can agree on what, exactly, constitutes a fair test. |
Yes, I did explain this, in the review, you must have missed it. I match levels on all tests to exactly 80dbA using the Rives Test CD2, so that the level from the headphones is identical from each amp and source, and when comparative headphones are being evaluated. This is far more rigorous than any other head-fi reviewer I know of, and indeed than many "big magazine" reviewers.
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| Originally Posted by feifan /img/forum/go_quote.gif You conclude, "The HD800 do not, IMO, change their own character radically from amp to amp." You obviously didn't use the HeadRoom Ultra Desktop. And I'm sure others could add the names of many other amps that weren't included in your study. Thus, your conclusion begs the question, Would a different set of amps produce different results? (See the list, below, of comments from this thread that directly or indirectly pose this very question.) |
So because I didn't use your favorite amp, my findings are not valid? Again, you are trying to refute carefully arrived at results because you disagree with them. There is no need for that. You don't have to agree. But it's just silly to say that 9 amps is not a large enough sample. IT IS. I'm sure there are amps that will be rolled off enough in the treble to eliminate what I heard, but that doesn't mean that what I heard isn't there. Again, it's fine for everyone to LIKE their sound. But they HAVE a sound.
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| Originally Posted by feifan /img/forum/go_quote.gif [SNIP] Furthermore, the headphones and speakers you used hardly qualify as representative of references comparable to the HD800: B&W N800, JVC DX1000, and Beyer DT880. The first are speakers, and the other two are closed and semi-closed cans. In all fairness, you mention other refs as well, e.g., the HD650, but these, too, aren't in the same class as the HD800. In this case, a fair comparison would be other reference quality open cans in the $1400 range, .i.e., if cost is your make-or-break factor. |
Cost is definitely NOT my "make or break" factor. And I compared the HD800 to things I know very well, and whose sound I know very well, which is what EVERY other reviewer does, including in magazines. They compare to REFERENCES, not to identical products. Should I go out and PS-1000's just so I have another pair of similarly priced headphones to compare? I think not, and no reviewer would.
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| Originally Posted by feifan /img/forum/go_quote.gif In deciding to post this opinion, I carefully read and extracted comments (see the list below) made by a number of participants in this thread, and taken together, they raise the kinds of questions that I do about some of your conclusions and methodology. Having said all this, I still feel that your review is excellent. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it and the discussion that follows. I think eliminating the claims to objectivity would have eliminated most if not all of the issues I've mentioned. I hope this criticism isn't taken personally since none of us -- including myself -- can claim to be logical, objective, and fair all the time. All we can do is try, and if we don't succeed some or all the time, no problem. It all makes for great discussions anyway. |
I'm sorry, but you could have attacked the review endlessly in terms of disagreeing with the sound, and I would have said nothing, or would have welcomed your opinion. But attacking the reviews objectivity DOES in fact make me bristle, and I think I have the right to. I disagree strongly with your assertions in that regard, and I hope you can see my points why.
All that said, I have ALWAYS said, over and over again, that my findings are JUST MY OPINION. But the ways in which I claim to have arrived at my own opinion objectively are valid.
As for the list you compiled of people who disagree with my findings, the list is at least as long, if not longer, of people who do, and that is as we would expect - people who agree, and people who disagree. However, the fact that you even felt the need to compile it shows you are trying to emotionally defend your ownership of the HD800, and I just don't think that is needed. After all - my review of the HD800 was (as others have pointed out) overwhelmingly positive.
