[Willakan]

I suppose it's a personal question. I treat my gear carefully (this is not meant as an insult, I'm not trying to imply that anyone else doesn't) and am not that bothered about aesthetics.
My O2 cost £60, including postage, even though I went for the larger case and added Neutrik RCA and headphone jacks to ensure long-term durability on that front. It is, however, as ugly as hell, due to me skimping on the front panel, and smells slightly of Araldite, which is quite clearly splattered on the front panel on the inside, as I'm not very good at gluing things.
 
I find many times that price, even for an exquisitely designed case that casts awe and wonder into all who look upon it/would survive me hitting it with a hammer, not really very appealing (having said that, I think you'll find the O2's case is tougher than it looks). I'd quite happily pay an extra £10-20 for a nice front panel though, in hindsight, but that's as much as I would throw after making my equipment look nice.
 
 
Regarding the dual headphone jack: Think how many O2s you could buy for the cost of a V200

! They'll even have their own volume jacks!

 

[shadow419]

Quote:

I don't really think the 1000 dollar price unjustified.  It takes alot to make those devices and people have to get paid.  And there is some to be said for features and build quality.  However, to often hear people equate that with placebo sound effects.  Sound is the most important thing to me.  I thank you for actually doing a blind test and I really want to see the results!  If your interested, I am conducing an mp3 vs lossless blind test in the sound science forum:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/594167/blind-test-128kbps-mp3-vs-lossless#post_8118013

I agree with you.  If the O2 were a commercial offering with a larger desktop form factor, internal power supply, and nicer case/ergonomics would people balk at paying $200-300 for it?  Possibly, but if it sounds well and has enough power for your requirements it's definitely worth a listen imo.

 

[Willakan]

What's actually wrong with the current cases? The photos of the JDS Labs amps in particular I've seen look very nice. Nobody is about to wax lyrical for a paragraph about their beauty, but they certainly don't embarrass themselves. I don't think it's fair to paint something like the JDS Labs offering as vastly visually/structurally inferior to other commercial offerings. 

 

[Crazy*Carl]

The only problem I have with the design is all front inputs.  Its not that bad though, I can minimize the affect with 90 degree male cables.

 

[shadow419]

Quote:

What's actually wrong with the current cases? The photos of the JDS Labs amps in particular I've seen look very nice. Nobody is about to wax lyrical for a paragraph about their beauty, but they certainly don't embarrass themselves. I don't think it's fair to paint something like the JDS Labs offering as vastly visually/structurally inferior to other commercial offerings. 

Nothing is wrong with the case.  I love all the  O2's I've put together, but when being realistic about it I know the enclosure was chosen for functionality and cost first and looks a distant second.  I like the way the O2 looks, but it could be improved.

 

[MikeW]

The stock case is quite sturdy. Honestly, it looks like it could easily withstand a 5 foot drop onto pavement. Especially as light as the unit is. As far as internal build quality?
 
I built it myself, I took my time, and I used good quality solder and parts. It's built extremely well. Proudly, made in the USA.
 
The only thing that could be improved is the jacks, and rear plugs for power/input. But this was designed for mobile use, not desktop. So all the front connections make sense.
 
There have been quite a few (DIYAUDIO Thread) that have made custom cases and moved the power/input/ac in to the rear, and used higher quality RCA and 1/4 jacks. It's really all up to the builder.
 
is 1000? unjustified? For the V200?
 
I don't know, it's hard to say, R&D, payroll, small company, profit margin.. If some giant consumer electronics company made the same thing it'd probably cost 200$. But a giant consumer electronics company would not make such a product to begin with (for whatever reason). I'd imagine the actual parts cost to be well under 200$. But perhaps not to a small company.
 
If you take a look at the V90, remove the blue transformer from it's case, there's not a whole lot of electronics there, about as much as an O2.
 
If I can build this thing for 85 bucks, Sony could build it en mass for 30$. But they are too busy making products for 8$ to be bothered.

 

[Naim.F.C]

It's certainly an interesting debate. I still actually believe the V200 is reasonably priced given the performance, competition pricing, discussed facets and the actual quality and build of the product itself. It really is exceptionally built and designed. I also believe it to be the best solid state amp I've ever tried or used, however small the lead margin may be, it's still there after all. It's kind of like everything in life really, premium's to be paid for the very best. You ever ask yourself why people pay £600 for top end graphics cards that offer only 5-10% extra performance? And then double or triple card SLI set ups where diminishing returns are worse.
 
The O2 is without doubt a game changer. It was necessary as I honestly feel the audio-fi world is and has been getting well out of control for some time. Could the V200 be cheaper? Sure. But given some of the prices of ultimate tier gear, I'm going to assume they offer very little difference in performance or quality compared to even the V200, again for probably 2-3 times the price if not more. But then that's like everything in the audio world, even between headphones etc.
 
The V200 is far from being ludicrously priced. If you want controversial opinions or comparisons, there are so many other things that are worse in the audio world. Even with hugely popular products, like for example, the LCD-3's. I'm sorry, but that right there is a bigger price gouge if I ever saw one.
 
 
 

 

[uelover]

Why do I seems to infer that the O2 performs respectably well (if not on par) with the V200 on SQ alone??
 
I am still waiting out to see if there is version of O2 that uses a clean external PSU and accepts RCA inputs.

 

[MikeW]

the PSRR on the 02 is so insanely good that the power supply hardly matters at all. Why a design like this can't be done on other gear? Why do we need 400$ separate boxes for PSU? Hell if I know, the O2 outperforms those models, with it's mere 10$ wallwart, no excess needed.
 
600 euro graphics cards? what is that like 800 usd?
 
The only graphics cards at that price are Dual GPU on a single card solutions, and the performance gain is more like 70%.
 
The next closest would be AMD's best 79xxx series that was just released, it's not 600 euro though, and it's about 30% faster.
 
5-10% faster? your talking about a mid-range to high end product. With a price bump of of 325 > 400$.. 75$ increase. 
 
SLI is almost double the performance, so that whole argument is silly.
 
A bad analogy, but yes, in life, with everything you do pay massive premium for that last 10%.
 
 
Quote:

Single AC/AC Wall Adapter - An inexpensive AC/AC two wire wall transformer can provide a true split supply using half-wave rectification. While half-wave might seem less than ideal, the performance is in the implementation and the advantages are numerous. Wall transformers are already safety agency approved and available for local power/plugs in various countries. They come with standard barrel connectors allowing the use of a small inexpensive power jack on the amp. The amp can operate perfectly without the batteries installed. There’s no high frequency switching “hash” to worry about. All that makes an AC wall transformer the best choice for the O2. Anyone doubting the performance of a half-wave power supply should check out the performance results in the first O2 article including the incredible noise performance. All those measurements (marked “AC”) were using this power supply. It works great!
 
POWER SOURCE: To geek out for a moment. An often unappreciated parameter of audio circuits is PSRR—Power Supply Rejection Ratio. It’s basically the ability of the circuitry to reject noise, ripple and variations on the power supply. In a lot of discrete designs PSRR is relatively poor and it’s really awful in most single-ended amps. That makes those designs sensitive to even small amounts of noise or variations on their power supply. By comparison, you can listen to the O2 even at full volume on the high gain setting, and attach or disconnect the AC power and there’s zero noise in the headphones. The entire power supply is abruptly jumping up and down by 30% and it’s inaudible! Try that on a single-ended zero feedback and you might damage your headphones the transient at the output will be so large.

 

 

[Crazy*Carl]

Yeah, you actually get what you pay for in gfx cards - and there is a very quantifiable benefit.

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

Why do I seems to infer that the O2 performs respectably well (if not on par) with the V200 on SQ alone??
 
I am still waiting out to see if there is version of O2 that uses a clean external PSU and accepts RCA inputs.

The desktop version is going to have a 1/4" TRS and RCA jacks.  The power supply is going to improved a bit too.  The specifics haven't been finalized but given the PSRR or the rest of the circuit its not like you'll be able to hear the difference even though it will probably show up on the dScope.
 

 

[uelover]

Quote:

The desktop version is going to have a 1/4" TRS and RCA jacks.  The power supply is going to improved a bit too.

Sounds interesting.
 

 

[Naim.F.C]

I'm willing to bet that the mark up made on high end graphics cards is more than Violectric makes on the V200. So I disagree personally.
 
In-fact, mid and high end graphics cards generally use chipsets and shared components from the same process. Often the main difference between upper tier GPU's and CPU's etc, is that the higher end one's were cherry picked one's that happen to perform better despite being from the same manufacturing process and line. The cherry picked chipsets are put together in a better package with a few extra additions to make the difference. I purchased an Intel i7 920 near release for pretty cheap (around £180), on air cooling I was able to OC it to 4ghz. The best CPU at the time performed worse, and cost nearly £1k. Took years before a stock i7 chip actually competed with my OC'd cheaper one.
 
I remember also purchasing numerous lesser priced graphics cards in the past and simply unlocking them to the upper model (bios flash), and then OC'ing past it's performance too, (i.e 5850 to 5870) all for half the price.

Bear in mind Carl, you mentioned that amps, DAC's etc made no difference to sonic performance, and from your iPod. This I also strongly disagree with. I bet you £500 in an earlier thread that I could do blind tests telling your iPod and an amp of choice apart, just as I did telling specific amps apart too, namely lesser priced or portable one's, i.e SR-71A, cMoyBB, ALO Continental etc. There is a quantifiable difference between a lot of amps, not all mind, though generally these differences are quite slight, like nearly everything else in the audio world. And it's a similar thing with the V200, just on a very miniscule degree. The V200 is not a completely neutral amp. It actually has a very slight emphasis on sub bass, smoother highs and musicality. The O2 as far as I can tell, is strictly neutral across the board.
 
 
Quote:

Yeah, you actually get what you pay for in gfx cards - and there is a very quantifiable benefit.

 

 

[DarknightDK]

The O2 is a very very good headphone amplifier at any price and I am surprised at how good it sounds. I have been comparing the amp section with my 10SE and I now know what neutral should sound like. The O2 is a fantastic listen and am enjoying it immensely.
 
Will pick up the desktop version as well. Hoping for better rear connectors, volume control and audiophile grade components. I think if NwAvGuy takes the time to design a high-end amplifier without it being limited to a budget, its going to be the one to beat. Already the O2 is a giant killer.

 

[mikeaj]

Quote:

The O2 is a very very good headphone amplifier at any price and I am surprised at how good it sounds. I have been comparing the amp section with my 10SE and I now know what neutral should sound like. The O2 is a fantastic listen and am enjoying it immensely.
 
Will pick up the desktop version as well. Hoping for better rear connectors, volume control and audiophile grade components. I think if NwAvGuy takes the time to design a high-end amplifier without it being limited to a budget, its going to be the one to beat. Already the O2 is a giant killer.

Out of curiosity, which components would you consider not to be audiophile grade?  The op amps, resistors (they're 1% metal film, so this I doubt), electrolytic / ceramic / film capacitors used, AC/AC adapter, or what?  Note that several more expensive op amps were tested, and they performed worse for this application than the cheaper ones chosen.  Also a few other audio coupling capacitors were also tested, and they performed pretty much the same.  Performance on AC vs. battery power is pretty much the same, so the power supply isn't a limitation either.  Sure, there were compromises made to keep the cost down, the board not larger than it already is, and the battery life not lower than it already is at like 6-8 hours with standard batteries, but there weren't too many big compromises made that ultimately detract a lot from the performance.
 
The Wire is more of a no-holds-barred higher-performance DIY headphone amplifier if you want something like that. There are some measurements in the diyaudio thread that show (probably inaudibly) better performance than the O2.  Unfortunately for users who just want an amp and aren't interested in building for the sake of building, the design is pretty much just the amp itself, leaving things like the case, topology (balanced or unbalanced inputs and outputs), volume control, etc. up to the builder.  There's less support and sources for getting the amp.