[tkam]

Thanks for the excellent review I really need to hear the L3000 some day.

 

[drarthurwells]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbratrud Apologia Coloration is an oft misunderstood phenomenon in my opinion. I have heard the same session’s guitar player play the same slide riff back to back on a Fender Stratocaster and a Gibson Les Paul. I suppose you could say the Les Paul sounded “colored” but I’d rather not give up Duane Allman for the sake of neutrality….and for that matter Keith Jarret said most Jazz pianists, himself included, preferred the Yamaha pianos to the Steinways because they were “brighter”, a coloration by definition….In my opinion music would be the less for the lack of all coloration.

You confuse coloration with timbre. Timbre is the real sound while coloration is the changes in timbre induced in the signal chain between the instrument and your brain (even the shape of your ear and ear canal can induce some coloration).

The Yamaha piano sounds different than the Steinway because of timbral differences, not because of coloration. Likewise, violins have unique sounds because of timbre, not because of coloration. In being recorded and listened to, each may sound differently from their live selves (but not from each other), because of coloration and not because of timbral differences.

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by drarthurwells You confuse coloration with timbre. Timbre is the real sound while coloration is the changes in timbre induced in the signal chain between the instrument and your brain (even the shape of your ear and ear canal can induce some coloration). The Yamaha piano sounds different than the Steinway because of timbral differences, not because of coloration. Likewise, violins have unique sounds because of timbre, not because of coloration. In being recorded and listened to, each may sound differently from their live selves (but not from each other), because of coloration and not because of timbral differences.

My thoughts, too.

The reproduction chain should ideally be as neutral as possible to let a Steinway be a Steinway and a Yamaha be a Yamaha.

 

[jpelg]

Congrats on your purchase, Michael! And thanks for your very well-articulated impressions. We appreciate it. I'm glad you are satisfied with your purchase, as I know you agonized for quite some time before making a final decision. Quote:

Originally Posted by drarthurwells You confuse coloration with timbre...In being recorded and listened to, each may sound differently from their live selves (but not from each other), because of coloration and not because of timbral differences.

Thanks for that explanation too, dw!

 

[mbratrud]

You are, of course both correct ( I believe I made the same point about timbre somewhere in what I wrote ) and I have simply failed to make a valid distinction.

To set the record straight from the standpoint of my comparison of the L3000s/DHA3000 vs the R-10/Maestro, the timbre characteristics on the AT pair are more like what I am hearing from the Wilsons than on the Singlepower/Sony combo.

 

[Nik]

Good! So I'll do not buy the Wilson, because the L3000 i shipped to my house...

One of the "problem" I had with my R10 (with all the amp I used with them) was a kind of bloom not controlled medbass... I have decided to sell them just for this aspect. The med was incredible...

The L3000 (for what I have read) do not has this "defect"?

Best!
Nicola

 

[Wmcmanus]

All I can really say is "wonderful!" We need more reviews like this one, but I know they don't come easily. Thank you for your efforts, Michael.

As Gene and others have mentioned, you had me nodding along in agreement with your descriptions of both the R10/Maestro ZR system and the L3000's (at least with the amps I've tried them with, although I can't speak for the DHA3000).

Oh, and Nik, don't worry... although the L3000's don't have the same mid bass problem that you found with the R10's, they've got problems of their own! If you listen long and hard enough, you'll find problems with any pair of headphones ever made! That goes for speakers too.

 

[Nik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus All I can really say is "wonderful!" We need more reviews like this one, but I know they don't come easily. Thank you for your efforts, Michael. As Gene and others have mentioned, you had me nodding along in agreement with your descriptions of both the R10/Maestro ZR system and the L3000's (at least with the amps I've tried them with, although I can't speak for the DHA3000). Oh, and Nik, don't worry... although the L3000's don't have the same mid bass problem that you found with the R10's, they've got problems of their own! If you listen long and hard enough, you'll find problems with any pair of headphones ever made! That goes for speakers too.

Not only headphones or speakers, but even men, weman, houses, cars... and all we can find in our planet...

Best!
Nicola

 

[dknightd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbratrud I am not a professional writer and if brevity is the soul of wit I shall be counted among the witless.

Maybe, but that is one of the nicest reviews I've read. All your words were put to good use. Comparisons to speaker listening, intrument listening, other headphones/amps, and general philosophy, really helped the reader both understand where you were coming from, and, what you valued. Beautiful job. Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbratrud No headphone can convey a stage, or even the semblance of a stage, the way a high end loudspeaker can.

I think this more an artifact of how most recordings are made. I suspect if recordings were made for headphones the stage could be more reasonably reproduced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbratrud Coloration is an oft misunderstood phenomenon in my opinion. I have heard the same session’s guitar player play the same slide riff back to back on a Fender Stratocaster and a Gibson Les Paul. I suppose you could say the Les Paul sounded “colored” but I’d rather not give up Duane Allman for the sake of neutrality….and for that matter Keith Jarret said most Jazz pianists, himself included, preferred the Yamaha pianos to the Steinways because they were “brighter”, a coloration by definition….In my opinion music would be the less for the lack of all coloration.

I wouldn't call the differences between intruments a "coloration" but I think I understood what you said. Maybe.
In some ways I consider musical reproduction as a form of a musical "instrument". The players of the instrument that makes the sound have a prefered "coloration" they want to create, the people who make and master the recording have preferences, the listeners of a "musical instrument, i.e. reproduction system" also have a sound they like to listen to. Since few of us have a chance to listen to both a live recording, and the subsequent playback of that same recording, it is difficult to determin what the artists who made the recording were hearing, and, how well what we listen to reproduces that moment. If we listen to alot of music, we as listeners grow to know what we like, and can create a playback system that gives us as much of that as possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbratrud A real problem with headphones is the ability to suggest a coherent sense of instrument placement. I have heard $2,000 monitors put virtually any headphone to shame when it comes to keeping instruments separated in space and of uniform size. As I mentioned previously, the R-10 accomplishes this more facilely than any other headphone I have heard owing largely to the perceived distance between the listener and the players. And the R-10 remains coherent with regard to this “stage” even during complex passages where many instruments are playing at once. Where most headphones appear to have players moving toward you or back – becoming larger or smaller – as the mix dictates, the R-10s tend to keep all the instruments of the same relative size or distance from the listener. This quality, along with an overall sense of tonal balance, is the principal reason I think I prefer the Sennheiser HD650 to the Grado RS-1 in the next tier of headphones down despite the HD650s notorious and ever present “veil”.

I've never listened to the R-10. But I think this coherence of sound and fairly decent tonal balance is why I like the 650 best of the midrange cans I've heard. The "veil" has never bothered me - could be my ears, or a preference for listening to music in a hall with carpeted floors and cushy seats (as opposed to a hard hall)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbratrud Voiced closer to the ear than the R-10s, the L3000s will appeal to the Grado lovers out there and the L3000s are vastly more coherent in their presentation of stage as well as their coherency across the frequency spectrum than are the Grados. The L3000s are not quite as refined as the R10s but they are lordly compared to the Grado RS-1s and every bit as textured and fun.

This whole "voicing" of headphones is interesting to me. How the heck do the designers "voice" one headphone to sound close, and another to sound more distant? While frequency responce probably plays a big role, there seems to be more to it than that...

Again. Great review, and discussion of sound and listening. I thoughroughly (SP!?!?!) enjoyed it. Got to go, no time to proofread, which I regret since the original post deserves a well formulated response - which mine is not yet but I have to post or delete, and I choose post...
Thanks again

 

[YngwieJMalmsteen]

I have read many "professional" reviews that are put to shame by yours. Manufacturers should send you their equipment for free, and somebody should be paying you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dknightd This whole "voicing" of headphones is interesting to me. How the heck do the designers "voice" one headphone to sound close, and another to sound more distant? While frequency responce probably plays a big role, there seems to be more to it than that...

I think it has more to do with attack/decay than frequency response. To make headphones sound farther away you make them more resonant, so they "ring" more (I get this a lot more from my hd280's than my dt880s).

 

[Kurt]

Very nice, thank you. =o)

 

[Chefguru]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dknightd This whole "voicing" of headphones is interesting to me. How the heck do the designers "voice" one headphone to sound close, and another to sound more distant? While frequency responce probably plays a big role, there seems to be more to it than that...

The design of the earcup plays a big role. The ath-l3000 have large cups that don't really extend to far - creating a forward sound. The r10 have very large cups that extend much farther. Also The pads on the r10 are thicker so you have more distance from the driver (this is also a reason why the r10's bass is much weaker).
IF you don't believe me take a look at the difference between grados with bowls and flats, and the difference between the rs-2 and the rs-1 (which use the same drivers but have different size chambers).

 

[Anders]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbratrud To set the record straight from the standpoint of my comparison of the L3000s/DHA3000 vs the R-10/Maestro, the timbre characteristics on the AT pair are more like what I am hearing from the Wilsons than on the Singlepower/Sony combo.

Thanks, this is very clarifying.

 

[GoRedwings19]

mbratrud>Would it possible to take a close up shot of the front panel of the DHA3000 I am curious to what the EQ settings do.

So do you find them a subjective improvement of the w2002's or is it that the fact the L3000's are more amp friendlier and this is why the L3000's excel over the w2002.

so the L3000/DHA3000 combo is warm and fuzzy. Hmm, I must admit you have piqued my interest in the DHA3000.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the w2002's might sing with this amp as well. If you send me the amp I could A/B them for you....

 

[Habib]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbratrud Apologia In my opinion music would be the less for the lack of all coloration.

Very well said, I like my music colored the way it is.