[LaidBack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif EDIT: I asked Vinnie, and the Amphora CAN in fact be ordered with a higher gain factor to accommodate 600 ohm headphones, so this is a non-issue.

Can you or Vinnie run some benchmarks on battery life while driving a 600 ohm load at reasonably full listening levels? That would be very much appreciated...

 

[Audio-Omega]

Has anyone compared this to RSA HR-2 ?

 

[Skylab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pars /img/forum/go_quote.gif Perhaps. But he is bringing up valid observations related to the design and engineering expended on this product. I don't see a problem with anyone commenting on reviews; in fact, I think it is a practice that should be encouraged, whether positive or negative. Had it been an amp with a modest casing, etc. and selling for a commensurate price, I doubt anyone would have expended the efforts. Including the review efforts... I chuckle everytime I think of someone doing this to review a Cmoy . Or... would it? Remember that designing per a datasheet will not hold up as IP. Obscuring chip markings, etc. is a pretty lame attempt/excuse at preserving IP. And yes, I believe there have been instances of designs being ripped off for commercial purposes.

I agree 100% about commenting on my reviews, both positively and negatively, if it can be done in a civil, intellectual fashion. Les's comments VERY quickly devolved into much more than that, and using my thread to attack people who DO like the look of the thing is inapproporiate - it's not unacceptable to like the way audio equipment looks, after all.

Even worse was including an incredibly unnecessary shot at my "motivations", which given my body of reviews here on head-fi, clearly needs no defense and deserves no attack. This I find completely unacceptable, definitely constitutes thread-crapping, and isn't productive. It's one thing to question product design choices; it's quite another to run around accusing everyone who writes a positive review of being a shill. This even applies to the first-time reviewers, if they have written a thoughtful review - they should be given the benefit of the doubt. Enthusiasm for a product does not equate to shilling.

So - I welcome all civil, well-reasoned, well-intentioned criticisms of my review. I will respond with my thoughts in kind. But ill-intentioned slams are unwanted, uneeded, and unnecessary. If I allow this sort of thing to happen in my review threads without reaction, it will scare off other newer reviewers, and I think that's a loss for head-fi, as what I got out of the site the most when I was new was reading product impressions. Back then I was steered into very good choices for me by listening to people describe the sound of products they owned or had heard. I've been trying to pay back that debt by offering my own impressions, which people should always take as nothing more. Feel free to disagree. But do it with class and style, not venom and acrimony.

Seems a simple enough request.

 

[Skylab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaidBack /img/forum/go_quote.gif Can you or Vinnie run some benchmarks on battery life while driving a 600 ohm load at reasonably full listening levels? That would be very much appreciated...

I cannot provide any definitive data, but I did use the Amphora for a whole day at work with my DT990/600, with no problems, so it will go 8-10 hours for sure.

I have read Vinnie say more than 24 hours use - I'm not sure if the amount of gain required from the amp significantly reduces this number or not.

 

[naamanf]

Maybe we are not giving the CMOY enough credit?

 

[scootermafia]

I don't think that Skylab has anything to gain from posting that he likes this amp. And I do want one because they are pretty, and with the $150 or so per pair input caps on this, expensive jacks, casework, and volume knob, I can see where the money goes, it's a luxury product.

That being said, I feel the same way about having difficulty trusting RWA and a teeny circuit board for a headphone amp being called as good as full blown amp designs - a huge home amp from Singlepower being in the same league as this is hard to believe. That freaked me out a bit when I heard it. But Skylab and Headphoneaddict have mountains of gear and experience under their belt and I want to trust them. I know that Vinnie can design some really good circuits, but with audio guts it's like being at a restaurant, you are more likely to want to go for the big portion, in the US bigger is often perceived as better for everything. Sure, taking stuff out of the signal path gives a purer sound, that's why lots of people say simplicity is good and why lots of people like the Grado RA-1. That being said, this amp with its 9V battery probably is based off an op amp design, so I fail to see how it will sound greatly different from a CMOY although the high quality pot, jacks, and input caps are going to help and hard wiring it to an iMod like that is a good call. I still want one of these, because it's sexy. I just have trust issues.

 

[bidoux]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scootermafia /img/forum/go_quote.gif I can see where the money goes, it's a luxury product.

I think it is a thing that had to be told !

 

[Currawong]

That the Amphora is not dissimilar to a portable amp makes me wonder what it is that gives it the ability to drive full-size headphones so well, considering there's a strong body of opinion that portable amps are insufficient for the job. I wonder if it's something to do with the large caps, as well as the circuit making the difference, storing enough energy to give big voltage swings, for example.

 

[scootermafia]

It must boil down to the secret not-an-opamp opamp that's in it. A lot of NOS parts have preternaturally good sound. The TDA1541 chip that was in my old Moodlab DAC was awesome, that little $250 DAC doesn't sound much worse than my $900 Havana. I feel a little ripped by the Havana but it's still breaking in and it does sound damn good, but as the Moodlab is gone I've sort of forgotten whether the Moodlab is much worse, just that when I first made the swap it wasn't a huge different.

Whatever the Amphora has in it, it's clever enough to where multiple respected reviewers are saying that it does really well with fullsize cans.

 

[Skylab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scootermafia /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't think that Skylab has anything to gain from posting that he likes this amp. And I do want one because they are pretty, and with the $150 or so per pair input caps on this, expensive jacks, casework, and volume knob, I can see where the money goes, it's a luxury product. That being said, I feel the same way about having difficulty trusting RWA and a teeny circuit board for a headphone amp being called as good as full blown amp designs - a huge home amp from Singlepower being in the same league as this is hard to believe. That freaked me out a bit when I heard it. But Skylab and Headphoneaddict have mountains of gear and experience under their belt and I want to trust them. I know that Vinnie can design some really good circuits, but with audio guts it's like being at a restaurant, you are more likely to want to go for the big portion, in the US bigger is often perceived as better for everything. Sure, taking stuff out of the signal path gives a purer sound, that's why lots of people say simplicity is good and why lots of people like the Grado RA-1. That being said, this amp with its 9V battery probably is based off an op amp design, so I fail to see how it will sound greatly different from a CMOY although the high quality pot, jacks, and input caps are going to help and hard wiring it to an iMod like that is a good call. I still want one of these, because it's sexy. I just have trust issues.

Scootermafia, thank you for your excellent post, and your civility, and I see where you are coming from. I come from the subjectivist school of audio reviewing, to be sure. I do take great care to match levels in comparison, and to control other variables like using the same source, cables, etc. But I review equipment with no regard to either the internal OR external construction of the amp.

In an ironic twist, the next amp I am reviewing is the Blue Circle Audio "Hat Peed Thingee", undoubtedly the ugliest headphone amp ever created. But it will get no points deducted for style, just as the Amphora got no credit for looking good.

And thank you for recognizing I have nothing to gain from giving the Amphora a positive review. What in the world could I possibly have to gain? I don't own the amp. I'm not buying one. I don't get paid to write reviews. If I had disliked the Amphora and ALO decided never to loan me another amp to review, even this isn't an issue for me - I get more requests to review gear than I can possibly accommodate given this is just a hobby for me.

In fact, based on all the animosity that seems to exist for ALO (for reasons I still have yet to understand), I would say that I had more to LOSE in writing a positive review than I had to gain.

 

[slwiser]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scootermafia /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't think that Skylab has anything to gain from posting that he likes this amp. And I do want one because they are pretty, and with the $150 or so per pair input caps on this, expensive jacks, casework, and volume knob, I can see where the money goes, it's a luxury product. That being said, I feel the same way about having difficulty trusting RWA and a teeny circuit board for a headphone amp being called as good as full blown amp designs - a huge home amp from Singlepower being in the same league as this is hard to believe. That freaked me out a bit when I heard it. But Skylab and Headphoneaddict have mountains of gear and experience under their belt and I want to trust them. I know that Vinnie can design some really good circuits, but with audio guts it's like being at a restaurant, you are more likely to want to go for the big portion, in the US bigger is often perceived as better for everything. Sure, taking stuff out of the signal path gives a purer sound, that's why lots of people say simplicity is good and why lots of people like the Grado RA-1. That being said, this amp with its 9V battery probably is based off an op amp design, so I fail to see how it will sound greatly different from a CMOY although the high quality pot, jacks, and input caps are going to help and hard wiring it to an iMod like that is a good call. I still want one of these, because it's sexy. I just have trust issues.

Great post...

My primary dynamic home amp is the Yamamoto HA-02 which if you look inside looks very minimal as well. But if you search further into the design you will find things that people suggest such as a transformer of special design and such. The designer's personal ability to shape the sound to a particular flair is especially relevant as well. So I would suggest that one never take one of these boutique designs as simple even when minimal.

 

[gp_hebert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif In fact, based on all the animosity that seems to exist for ALO (for reasons I still have yet to understand)

Comparing how much they charge for their products compared to the cost of parts would be one good starting point to understand the animosity.

 

[Skylab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gp_hebert /img/forum/go_quote.gif Comparing how much they charge for their products compared to the cost of parts would be one good starting point to understand the animosity.

OK, thank you for that. But I fail to understand this engendering animosity, on two levels. First, ALO is in business to make money, and should be allowed to do so - they are not a charity. SOME profit expectation is fair and reasonable.

But second, are you sure that their markups are even unreasonable? I look at the Amphora and I see at least $600-700 of parts cost. Of course, nice chassis-mounted gold jacks (which benefit the sonics IMO) and a wood chassis (which doesn't) are part of the cost, but as stated before, the VCaps and Pot alone probably represent $400 in parts cost. And ALO is not a high-volume operation and likely pays about the same for parts that you or I would.

If they cannot make a couple hundred dollars on a thousand dollar amp, why would they even bother to produce the thing in the first place?

On the other hand, if you can convince me that the parts cost on the Amphora is really $300, then I will agree with you they should sell if for cheaper.

EDIT: and perhaps you were referring to other ALO products. I have not tried to analyze the profit margin on other things they sell.

 

[gp_hebert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif OK, thank you for that. But I fail to understand this engendering animosity, on two levels. First, ALO is in business to make money, and should be allowed to do so - they are not a charity. SOME profit expectation is fair and reasonable. But second, are you sure that their markups are even unreasonable? I look at the Amphora and I see at least $600-700 of parts cost. Of course, nice chassis-mounted gold jacks (which benefit the sonics IMO) and a wood chassis (which doesn't) are part of the cost, but as stated before, the VCaps and Pot alone probably represent $400 in parts cost. And ALO is not a high-volume operation and likely pays about the same for parts that you or I would. If they cannot make a couple hundred dollars on a thousand dollar amp, why would they even bother to produce the thing in the first place? On the other hand, if you can convince me that the parts cost on the Amphora is really $300, then I will agree with you they should sell if for cheaper.

To be honest, I have no idea how much the parts cost in the Amphora, but their docks and cables seem way overpriced to me. Parts to build an iPod line-out dock are less than 10$, add "exotic" cables and connectors for a total of 50-60$, yet he sells the whole thing for 150-200$ if not more. And some of his cables have been known to oxidize over time and he doesn't provide customer service for that.

Every company out there wants to make profit, I have no problem with that if there's some R&D and special manufacturing involved, but most of what ALO produces can be done by anyone with a soldering iron and some free time. Still, if people like ALO products, good for them, but I personally find their markups unreasonable and will never buy from them for that reason.

 

[scootermafia]

The Amphora is horribly expensive to make, I don't think they're ripping anyone off for sure. And now that I know a little more about its circuit I think I can trust it, although the next $1400 that comes my way is probably going to HD800s. I can't help but feel that with that gorilla headphone out there, that my M3 + Havana is bottlenecked now by headphones (although a Beta22 wouldn't hurt). There's no way it's quick to put one together by hand, dealing with wood enclosures and all that hand wiring is serious business.

I don't think they charge too much for cables, if you do some DIY and do it right it's very very time consuming even with experience it gets even slower as you really want to make no mistakes. If you think what a professional like a plumber or electrician charges per hour, and add it to the cost of parts, the prices aren't bad at all. If you know how to do it yourself, do it yourself. Otherwise, pay up. The SXC wire really does sound damn good and I high five Ken for commissioning it, you'd think SPC is going to be bright but it's actually the best wire for K702s that I know of. I know their stuff is made in a similar way to other people's DIY'd stuff on head-fi, but again - these premade cables are a service that is second nature to some and foreign to others - just like some people can repair their own furnace with a few minutes work while other people don't even know what a furnace does. And it seems that ALO is the company that sort of originated the whole big bling naked wire with braiding and big bling connectors look that everyone copies, unless I"m mistaken and someone was doing that sort of thing before then, as well as the whole get crazy with your iPod cables thing...I wouldn't say they don't innovate.

Skylab, I admire your openmindedness with amps and keeping objective with it (in that you review exactly what you hear) while being subjective (personal preference for certain amps even if it doesn't "make sense" to some people). A lot of people, myself included, hold Audio-GD as the gold standard for value, design and performance (even though all I've done is drool over their DACs) because when you look inside it, it has more parts than a space shuttle. Kingwa likes to filter the hell out of everything with like 10 resistors per square inch. I don't own their stuff but just looking at it makes you believe it can perform...seeing their stuff can make you distrust stuff with simpler designs. It really does hurt my ability to be open minded. Still, I learned my lesson by assuming the Havana would be 4 times better than my puny Moodlab, whereas it really is an incremental upgrade and my hearing and other gear is probably not good enough to appreciate it as much as some people can. I think I can hear cables better than different DACs which is sad.