[Tuco1965]

I listen to both for the music, and nothing else.

 

[Shaffer]

well what are you listening to, the quality of silence? or the quality of music?
if you think LPs can never be as quiet as a cd ... for actual human listening. you've not heard a good one yet. proper alignment takes skill almost nobody makes the time for.

a manual car will l drive like **** if you don't know how to shift. CDs are just automatics that teach you nothing.

Excuse me. I spent ~15 years in the audio business specializing in turntables. I've setup almost everything under the sun and still get calls to do in-home setups, even though the service hasn't been offered in years. One can safely say that I have the proper alignment skill and all the tools to go with it. No, an LP can never be as quiet as a CD. Is that really such a big problem?

Having just looked at your profile, you have a Project Debut, meaning, you have no idea what a LP really sounds like and all the talk about silence is just wishful thinking. A fairly tale. Your turntable simply is not capable of such performance. It's not an insult; it's the reality of the situation. With all this in mind, what is the basis for your claim?

Edit: grammar

 

[CanadianMaestro]

yep just as I thought. learning is obsolete

the greatest hilarity of this thread is using the word love and rational in the same sentence

perfection is ****** boring.. and also relative. its music you're trying to talk about here right??

vinyl will teach you pretty hardcore about physics. sound is physics.
CDs will only teach you how to spend money to "improve" the sound.

Yeah, it's MUSIC, my friend. Silence is a part of musical enjoyment.
Try listening to Arvo Part's Spegel am Spiegel with mediocre background noise. Or a solo piano piece like a Beethoven sonata's adagio, or even a string quartet..

(I can buy 10 CDs for the price of one new LP)

 

[Shaffer]

Yeah, it's MUSIC, my friend. Silence is a part of musical enjoyment.
Try listening to Arvo Part's Spegel am Spiegel with mediocre background noise. Or a solo piano piece like a Beethoven sonata's adagio, or even a string quartet..


(I can buy 10 CDs for the price of one new LP)

Let's not take this so far. A little occasional surface noise is more benign than sitting in a concert hall with folks coughing, moving around, whispering - it's hardly silent during a live performance. In terms of recordings, is black-as-black silence really distracting from the performance, when it lies so far below the musical content? Plus, unlike the CD, one can hear below the noise floor. When the music is playing, given a quality system (that's big), one isn't aware of the noise floor. Between tracks, especially with headphones, sure. There's some there.

OTOH, given the typical old Japanese thrift store special common on this forum, coupled with LPs purchased in a similar manner, the noise floor can be quite high and very audible.

 

[CanadianMaestro]

shaffer, I agree with you, one can listen PAST the noise floor and enjoy the music. No such thing as absolute silence, CD or vinyl; that's not what I was driving at. I just object to the notion that striving for a "silent" profile is antagonistic to musicality and musical enjoyment.
 
cheers

 

[cjl]

 Plus, unlike the CD, one can hear below the noise floor

Although I agree that the noise is relatively benign, this is somewhat false. CDs with proper dither applied can also play tones "below" the noise floor - you can easily create a 16 bit dithered file with a tone at 1/4 of a LSB or lower (-100dB or lower).

 

[Shaffer]

Although I agree that the noise is relatively benign, this is somewhat false. CDs with proper dither applied can also play tones "below" the noise floor - you can easily create a 16 bit dithered file with a tone at 1/4 of a LSB or lower (-100dB or lower).

I can only state what I've heard with my own ears. Hypothetical pronouncements mean nothing to my enjoyment of music.

 

[xantus]

and yet here you are denying what I hear..

I've had stax for 13 years. I know exactly what a noise floor is..
ever even heard a nagaoka 555 with a lounge pre?
I've tweaked the hum and rumble out of my debut, and that's with my amp at 2-3 o'clock..

 

[cjl]

I can only state what I've heard with my own ears. Hypothetical pronouncements mean nothing to my enjoyment of music.

You can hear it easily enough. Try it yourself! Make a 24 bit file in an audio editor that is completely silent except for a -100dBFS tone. Downconvert it to 16 bit with noise-shaped dither. You'll still be able to hear the tone, despite it being quieter than the "96dB" dynamic range usually claimed for CD. You can go even quieter than that too!

 

[Shaffer]

You can hear it easily enough. Try it yourself! Make a 24 bit file in an audio editor that is completely silent except for a -100dBFS tone. Downconvert it to 16 bit with noise-shaped dither. You'll still be able to hear the tone, despite it being quieter than the "96dB" dynamic range usually claimed for CD. You can go even quieter than that too!

I appreciate the effort, but this isn't for me. Really don't care enough.

 

[jcx]

that's fine- but please refrain from spouting nonsense on the subject:

 Plus, unlike the CD, one can hear below the noise floor.

 

[Shaffer]

that's fine- but please refrain from spouting nonsense on the subject:

I'm comfortable relying on my own experience in lieu of a hypothetical supposition. Deal with it.

 

[jcx]

you're going to get called on technically incorrect statements in the Sound Science subforum
 
you didn't have to toss that line in to make your point and you doubled down by stating you don't care to even test it subjectively

 

[Shaffer]

you're going to get called on technically incorrect statements in the Sound Science subforum

you didn't have to toss that line in to make your point and you doubled down by stating you don't care to even test it subjectively

I don't believe that my comment was technically incorrect and I'm not about to write a novel explaining why that is. If this is all you have to debate, try listening to some music.

Edit: I own ~2500 CDs, If you can name a CD that has an audible noise floor (not tape hiss), I may have it and will gladly listen to it for support for your claim. Haven't heard one yet.

 

[jcx]

yes there is considerable justification of that needed here - given that dither theory is well known, thoroughly explored part of any modern digital mastering process, DAW documentation:
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/772176/rational-reasons-to-love-vinyl/150#post_11723555
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/280217/24bit-vs-16bit-how-big-is-the-difference/240#post_4051105
 
even Ethan while being contrary does admit there's no reason to avoid proper dither even if his point is that natural noise in recordings already is sufficient: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/mastering-forum/163362-dithering-101-a.html