R2R RIP or Resurrection?

[JamoBroGuy]

A 15,000 dollar DAC is exactly the same as a 100 dollar Chinese knock off.
If you think otherwise... you're a victim of snake oil marketing.

Straw man argument. We never said all 15000 dollar DACs are the same as 100 dollar DACs. Super expensive DACs usually have lower fidelity on purpose in order to sound different, so they’re not the same as 100 dollar DACs. Preferring said lower fidelity is completely fine, of course.

Leave the damn straw man alone. You’ve attacked him way too much in SS. What did he ever do to you?

 

[2leftears]

Yep, pretty much throughout the entirely of the 1980’s they campaigned that CD was inferior to vinyl. Quite a few of the current BS arguments about vinyl’s supposed superior fidelity are direct quotes or derivatives of the false BS Naim invented. Of course, once they themselves started making digital audio products, as vinyl was nearly dead and they had no choice if they were to survive, then they invented more BS to justify they’re new position and started to re-write their own history. Obviously that was successful as we have people now citing them as pioneers of digital audio rather than the opposite. Like claiming Einstein was a pioneer of quantum mechanics and black hole theory.

Indeed; some of Naim's digital 'innovations' sounded more like over-engineered solutions that could be successfully marketed, rather than that they made sense from an engineering perspective. For S/PDIF I seem to recall them using ten (slightly) different clocks in a DAC at some point, and constantly switching between them in order to best match the incoming data rate, and thus control the FIFO buffer status in that way rather than using the usual effective PLL technology.

 

[theveterans]

$2,000 DAC (Schiit Yggdrasil) with significantly poorer performance in terms of SINAD than a $9 DAC (Apple Dongle). 86dB SINAD is not a “diminishing return” compared to 99dB SINAD, it’s a clearly objective negative return!

The current Yggdrasil has a different R2R chip than the original one which now measures 119-120 dB SINAD and the measurements are taken from Schiit website themselves

 

[JamoBroGuy]

The current Yggdrasil has a different R2R chip than the original one which now measures 119-120 dB SINAD and the measurements are taken from Schiit website themselves

Maybe they’re providing improperly taken measurements for marketing purposes. I could be wrong, of course.

 

[VNandor]

Maybe they’re providing improperly taken measurements for marketing purposes. I could be wrong, of course.

They provided A weighted measurements which cuts both low and high frequency noise. It is a common tactic to inflate the numbers and as can be seen, it is clearly working in some cases.

 

[theveterans]

Maybe they’re providing improperly taken measurements for marketing purposes. I could be wrong, of course.

They use the same measurement parameters as Topping so you’re implying Topping and Amir are also measuring their gears improperly. Topping even measures at 5V which is where AP555B generates the most sensitive or highest possible SNR and noise floor measurements

 

[bigshot]

I guess a high end roll off could be described as smoother, but it’s easier to just call it a high end roll off.

 

[JamoBroGuy]

They use the same measurement parameters as Topping so you’re implying Topping and Amir are also measuring their gears improperly. Topping even measures at 5V which is where AP555B generates the most sensitive or highest possible SNR and noise floor measurements

I stand corrected.

 

[castleofargh]

Fellas, I’d recommend taking this discussion elsewhere. It’s generally frowned upon to talk about subjective stuff in a science forum.

We discuss subjective stuff all the time. There is no reason not to.
Sadly, we also spend most of our time having to try and explain the difference between subjective and objective reality to people. And that is a PITA. To anyone who can distinguish between subjective experience and objective reality, I'm more than happy to exchange ideas and opinions.

When controlled listening is advised, it is so people can verify the possible differences between what they think they can hear, and what they actually can hear. It's a big part of subjectivity to learn about and understand our senses, and cognitive biases. How can we hope to understand fellow humans and ourselves without first getting the measure of how much those biases influence our experiences and how differently some can impact different people? Only by discussing various subjective aspects of a human being can we better understand them, IMO. Science has never tried to repress subjectivity, it only cares to draw a line between objective and subjective reality when there is one to draw. If the question we try to answer is objective, then indeed, subjectivity probably should wait outside so it won't influence the result.
Enjoying a R2R NOS DAC or some amplifier with 4 or 5% THD, Or vinyls, or Beats by Dre, or anything that's not the objective best choice for fidelity, isn't a fault or a mistake, it's a matter of personal taste. There is no wrong taste. But there are false objective statements.
If @Diet Kokaine had just said he really enjoyed his R2R DAC, it would have been a better message in support of R2R designs than any of the BS he's been posting to demonstrate rhetorical skills inversely proportional to his arrogance.


Anyway, opinions and subjective discussions are welcome in the Sound Science section. What would even be the point of a hobby about music that can't talk about the subjective experience? It's declaring objective facts based exclusively on casual impressions that cause endless issues.

 

[JamoBroGuy]

We discuss subjective stuff all the time. There is no reason not to.
Sadly, we also spend most of our time having to try and explain the difference between subjective and objective reality to people. And that is a PITA. To anyone who can distinguish between subjective experience and objective reality, I'm more than happy to exchange ideas and opinions.

When controlled listening is advised, it is so people can verify the possible differences between what they think they can hear, and what they actually can hear. It's a big part of subjectivity to learn about and understand our senses, and cognitive biases. How can we hope to understand fellow humans and ourselves without first getting the measure of how much those biases influence our experiences and how differently some can impact different people? Only by discussing various subjective aspects of a human being can we better understand them, IMO. Science has never tried to repress subjectivity, it only cares to draw a line between objective and subjective reality when there is one to draw. If the question we try to answer is objective, then indeed, subjectivity probably should wait outside so it won't influence the result.
Enjoying a R2R NOS DAC or some amplifier with 4 or 5% THD, Or vinyls, or Beats by Dre, or anything that's not the objective best choice for fidelity, isn't a fault or a mistake, it's a matter of personal taste. There is no wrong taste. But there are false objective statements.
If @Diet Kokaine had just said he really enjoyed his R2R DAC, it would have been a better message in support of R2R designs than any of the BS he's been posting to demonstrate rhetorical skills inversely proportional to his arrogance.


Anyway, opinions and subjective discussions are welcome in the Sound Science section. What would even be the point of a hobby about music that can't talk about the subjective experience? It's declaring objective facts based exclusively on casual impressions that cause endless issues.

Yeah, that was pretty much what I meant.

 

[gregorio]

The current Yggdrasil has a different R2R chip than the original one which now measures 119-120 dB SINAD and the measurements are taken from Schiit website themselves

Maybe the current Yggdrasil has a higher SINAD than the older version ASR measured but according to your post it does not have 119-120dB SINAD and I explained why. It is surprising that Schiit themselves posted that incorrect/misleading measurement!

They use the same measurement parameters as Topping so you’re implying Topping and Amir are also measuring their gears improperly.

If the image you posted was topping’s own, then they clearly aren’t using the same measurement parameters, they don’t even state a SINAD measurement and Amir, as far as I’m aware measures SINAD correctly. So your assertion is incorrect.

I stand corrected.

No, you were right the first time. It’s common for some specs/measurements to be published with “A-Weighting”, even though it’s misleading, as it’s typical and the definition of the measurement may not strictly require no weighting, dynamic range is a common example. But SINAD specifically requires all distortion + all noise, so you can’t simply remove portions of noise or distortion and still call it SINAD.

G

 

[JamoBroGuy]

No, you were right the first time. It’s common for some specs/measurements to be published with “A-Weighting”, even though it’s misleading, as it’s typical and the definition of the measurement may not strictly require no weighting, dynamic range is a common example. But SINAD specifically requires all distortion + all noise, so you can’t simply remove portions of noise or distortion and still call it SINAD.

Ah, that makes sense. I was unfamiliar with A-weighting before, I just looked it up and now I understand.

 

[theveterans]

Ah, that makes sense. I was unfamiliar with A-weighting before, I just looked it up and now I understand.

Yes, different manufacturers that publish measurements agreed to have a universal established parameters for apples-to-apples comparison

 

[Jimmyblues1959]

Yes, different manufacturers that publish measurements agreed to have a universal established parameters for apples-to-apples comparison

In over 50 years in this hobby and a myriad of differing opinions I've learned two things: trust your own ears when it comes to purchasing an audio system, and try to audition equipment in your own home before you commit to purchasing it.

 

[sander99]

trust your own ears when it comes to purchasing an audio system

So, you are doing double blind ABX tests to compare different equipment then? (Otherwise, you would not be trusting your ears but your subjective hearing perception influenced by many, many other things besides the actual sound entering your ears.)