yes but I mean if we were to blind test something like the 2 bitfrosts, and it happens that they don't sound different, then we can close the topic and go back to say that implementation is key(what I suspect oh so strongly), not the kind of converter used. on the other hand if differences are indeed audible, then we have something to start from, instead of debating electronic philosophy like we've been doing. it wouldn't be enough to draw definitive conclusions, but it would be a lead, and we could confront it to other DACs offering 2 implementations in the future, and slowly but surely end up with something significant. and in both cases we could record the output for people to try. while it's clearly not perfect and very objective, at least we might be going somewhere. I'm getting a little sick of having to do the all subjective vs objective crap on each and every topic, just because some people can't admit that they are not fool proof and need a proper testing method to do a proper test. shouldn't that stuff be common sens instead of the reason we argue all day long? anybody friendly and not too far from shiit's super secret headquarters to try and gently rob them of 2 models for the duration of the test? or maybe just asking them what they think on the matter? after all they might have a little idea ^_^.