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R2R/multibit vs Delta-Sigma - Is There A Measurable Scientific Difference That's Audible

Discussion in 'Sound Science' started by goodyfresh, Aug 31, 2015.
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  1. castleofargh Contributor
    yes but I mean if we were to blind test something like the 2 bitfrosts, and it happens that they don't sound different, then we can close the topic and go back to say that implementation is key(what I suspect oh so strongly), not the kind of converter used.
    on the other hand if differences are indeed audible, then we have something to start from, instead of debating electronic philosophy like we've been doing. it wouldn't be enough to draw definitive conclusions, but it would be a lead, and we could confront it to other DACs offering 2 implementations in the future, and slowly but surely end up with something significant.
    and in both cases we could record the output for people to try.
    while it's clearly not perfect and very objective, at least we might be going somewhere. I'm getting a little sick of having to do the all subjective vs objective crap on each and every topic, just because some people can't admit that they are not fool proof and need a proper testing method to do a proper test. shouldn't that stuff be common sens instead of the reason we argue all day long?
    anybody friendly and not too far from shiit's super secret headquarters to try and gently rob them of 2 models for the duration of the test? or maybe just asking them what they think on the matter? after all they might have a little idea ^_^.
  2. RRod
    "Hey Schiitmasters, you've recently been making some extra coin off of these R2R designs; care to say they don't make a mouse-fart's difference to the sound? If not, will you give us 2 free units so we can determine this ourselves?"
    I'm sure that would go over great. [​IMG]
    castleofargh likes this.
  3. castleofargh Contributor
    you ruined my life!!!!!!!!!!!! and next you will tell me that santa isn't real.
    maybe a "buy one get 2 and then send one back" program? (I feel soooo gullible right now).
     I strongly believe a DAC is the last thing I should put money into. so I'm not inclined to go and buy 2 just for the fun of trying. I'm really too poor to put close to 900euros into the "I was curious" budget.  still it would be interesting. they both seem to measure good enough to be possibly transparent.
  4. Roly1650
    Santa's real, it's the tooth fairy you gotta watch, (the boobs are fake and the lips are botox'ed).

    Each version of the Bifrost and each version of the Gungnir have different analog sections, so save your money. Looking at the specs for either doesn't show a busting great deal of difference between versions and if not transparent, they must be really close, (while accepting that the Schitt specs aren't a complete test suite).
  5. goodyfresh

    Actually dude if you know much about Schiit's philosophy and demeanor as a company, you'd know that they'd actually quite possibly be open to the idea of such a study, as well as to admitting that R2R vs DS makes no real difference if that is actually the truth they have uncovered in their own labs.

    Don't believe me about how honest they are?  Just go and read their product page for their cables:  http://schiit.com/products/pyst-cables  The entire page is a tongue-in-cheek parody of the bullsh*t marketing-speak commonly used by cable manufacturers to hype their stuff. "In any case, you can get PYST, or you can save some money at Monoprice," they say.  Lmao.

    Hmmmmmmmm, so do even the NEWEST version of the Bifrost DS and Bifrost R2R have different analog-sections from one-another?  How about the Gungnir?  If so. . .then crap. . .craaaaaaaaaaaaaap.
    It's starting to seem like if anyone wants to test this whole R2R vs. DS thing in a truly scientific manner, we'll have to get ahold of some engineers and have them actually build one R2R dac and one DS dac from scratch, each with identical analog sections.
  6. Sal1950
    Man you guys are cynical. Doesn't anyone believe the folks at Schitt are interested in a above board test of two DACs enough to loan them to the site mods,
    all for the sake of science? I'm sure review samples come this way on a regular basis.
  7. Baldr
    Folks -- if this post does not get deleted -- I would gather that from reading the majority of verbiage in the forum, that my life has been a complete exercise in futility since I built the first D/A converter ever in 1983 as well as dozens since then.  Or perhaps I am unaware that I delude myself into believing that I am an audio hardware huckster lurking in these forums and the marketplace  to wrest the last money from hapless audiophiles.
    What I can tell you is that I know what I like with certainty.  What I also know is that what anyone else may like or not like is absolutely none of my business.  Even more so, I have no right to nor ever tell anyone else what is right or wrong for them, whether it be based on what I think is science, opinion, or fairy tale.
    I choose to build a variety of digital audio products that I like, and let a free market decide.  The funny thing is - the intervening years have been enjoyable and fun beyond belief.  This is because if I want enjoy a hobby, I cannot take myself too seriously.  I have to be able to smile.  I am too old not to.
    Elsewhere posted but very germain:  I have a great idea for some – they could blindfold themselves, add earplugs and experiment on making love to various consenting women (or women audiophiles to consenting men – like it would be a problem to find them). They could switch midstroke, to see if they could tell them apart. Those who have never had fun in the process could start getting laid science forums to prove that it is impossible to tell any difference between partners. Those of us who love, appreciate, enjoy, and treat our lovers well would end up with the best. To say nothing of enjoying life.
    Schiit Audio Stay updated on Schiit Audio at their sponsor page on Head-Fi.
    https://www.facebook.com/Schiit/ http://www.schiit.com/
  8. x RELIC x Contributor

    ^^ best post ever! ^^

  9. spruce music
    So does that mean you guys won't be loaning us two DACs to test?
  10. castleofargh Contributor

    can't say I disagree, but we don't need science or such a topic to experience love and emotions. I go with the premise that we're not here discussing if we like something(there are enough appreciation threads for that). but instead that a topic like this one has for purpose to, if possible, try and find out more about what is really happening. both in the DAC and at our ears.
    someone like you has been testing more things that I could probably think about, you have found some answers and have your ideas about what is good for each purpose or what you prefer.
    but to a random guy like myself with only the surface of the theoretical understanding and so little ways to test something myself, what I'm looking for online isn't audio art or audio love(I have Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder for that ^_^), but understanding and factual information. I don't think I'm dumber than the next guy, if I listen to something and really enjoy it I will want to bring it home, that's not why I want to know. I want to know because I want to know. a genuine desire not to be an ignorant fool about everything. you could say it's my second audio hobby after listening to good music.
    I've read about some audio product designers who thought it was silly not to use negative feedback, given all the pros vs little cons. then I've seen some other but just as serious guys going beyond themselves to try and not use that feedback, thinking it was so bad they would rather lose good FR linearity and low impedance.
    I've read about how jitter is of little audible consequences in most modern products, about listening tests agreeing to that idea, about most things being minimum phase. then I read about the Ayre guy asking the UN to intervene and put an end to the evil time smearing and phase shifting trying to murder the ears of the innocent children.
    I've seen guys cry over the horrible ringing of an IIR low pass filter for years, from guys even older than I am who couldn't ear a 16khz signal if their life depended on it.
    I've seen some R2R marketing with all the stupid staircases conspiracies, saying how pulse modulation was an all noisy process and should be avoided like a plague.  and I thought it made sense. then I've seen the ESS guy(martin something?) explain how they had a 5th order modulator and explain how noise shaping helped reach practical noise levels that are very much good enough to be considered inaudible.
    I've seen some pro R2R say how the signal is of better fidelity, then I see some other guy saying that people prefer R2R because they like some noise modulation that that is in fact not a sound that was in the original record.
    I've see so many people tell me how the soundstage was better in R2R, then maybe a month ago, Bob Katz said something about how he felt like the soundstage in R2R was slightly narrower.
    and I was back to square one(and that's ust a few stuff I got on the top of my head, it's much worse in reality). are all those guys living in parallel universes? I'm the first to understand that things aren't all black and white and most stuff can be true under given conditions. most stuff in electronic are a game of give and take after all. I'm cool with that.  but having to swim in this audio world where claims contradict each other all day long, saying that I should trust my feelings and enjoy the good stuff, really isn't helping me much when what I desire is a little knowledge I could trust.
    when I'm learning about optical stuff and find some information, I don't have to run all over the web to see if someone else is saying the opposite. only audio has that kind of BS going on. if it was theoretical physics I might understand, but we're talking about audio here, not string theory. so why all the mystery and all the cults about everything and the exact opposite of it? are both R2R and sigma delta good enough to get audible transparency? does audible transparency exist given how crappy our headphones are? what are the drawbacks of using either of those techs?
    those are but a few of the stuff I wish to learn in such a topic.
    prot likes this.
  11. x RELIC x Contributor
    castleofargh, I completely see your point of view. May I suggest changing the title of the thread to be something like 'R2R/multibit vs Delta-Sigma - Is There A Measurable Scientific Difference That's Audible?' That way it will be crystal clear what the intended premis of the thread is and emotional preference and pleasure will be squashed immediately. Of course, the conversation is intertwined with both sides which is why there is so much mystery and contradictions in the facts.
    landroni likes this.
  12. astrostar59

    I agree. Best way, pick some recommended DACs and GET THEM HOME, USE YOUR EARS. Forget the tech, the hyperbole, the theories. You find in any profession (especially scientific or medicine disciplines) the folk who know a bit will not bend, or even consider a different direction or view, even to admit a difference exists. It is best to avoid those posts, and pick the various DACs folk are buying, try those in your system, and see what your own ears are telling you.
    Remember, folk who have bought a dCs stack for 30K are never going to be happy to look in another direction.
  13. castleofargh Contributor
    isn't the OP explicit enough with his first post?
    if OP is OK of course I have no objection to change the title.
    doesn't answer the questions of the topic at all though.
    "I agree." ??? did you even read the posts you're responding to?
    also same as above, you're not answering the questions of the topic. and I don't know if we will not bend, but you seem to have no trouble bending what we said. for the ... too many times, we're not saying there are no difference, we're asking for evidence. evidence of audible differences or evidence of absence of differences, to me it doesn't matter. I just want to know that I can trust the guy who's talking.  you're getting antagonized only because you make a claim without any will to back it up when asked to. not for the nature of your claim. a guy saying "all the DACs in the world sound the same" would receive the same treatment you did.
  14. x RELIC x Contributor

    Apparently not given the last few pages of posts. :wink_face:
  15. astrostar59

    Be careful winding folk up with a 'high-end' system banner. I have not said that, but have promoted R-2R DACs and the Stax 009s, the KGSShv and even the BHSE and got shot down, there are many who like the Duck Shoot and will never shut up.
    Going back to this debacle of a thread, it is provable that a certain DAC sounds different to anther DAC on the same system. It could be done with microphones for example. But I am unsure what use that would be. It still comes back to A/B listening and the ears. I understand one cannot in theory 'remember' the sound of a component weeks, months or even years later. BUT we can remember details in a specific (well known) track i.e. if you see a painting in a magazine, then see that painting in a  gallery, so will see better colour and more detail,, and realise that it is NEW information not heard (or seen) in the magazine photo. Likewise if you pass someone everyday in your street, say hello but never speak to them, when you DO speak to them, you look at their face and see a mole, or something else new. It is the same thing, a sensory awareness, and a measurable thing i.e. it is new to your brain, new information.
    Also another measurable method is when I listen to music I have my own memory of how I think an orchestra should sound, a bass guitar, a drum kit, and if I recognise that sound in my system and I like it, and realise it is more accurate, then I give that DAC or whatever a thumbs up, or a mental score in levels.
    So we have our own personal reference points that we amass over time, and if the person is an audiophile or keen musician, that person will have a 'golden ear' and a good judgement of how a product sounds, how good it is. Kids may like the typical V shaped happy ear speakers response curves (explains why radios and ear speakers have a bass boost feature for example), adults may have progressed beyond that impressionistic and unrealistic view.
    You get my drift. I go back to listing and using your ears, try home demo's and against another unit at the same time. Some folk on this forum talk about this DAC or that Amplifier being the best they have heard, but many have changed speakers and source and other items since they sold that previous DAC, maybe that mental test is no longer accurate.... Ha Ha maybe we DO need a measurable system. Thing is there isn't one that will work or be of any use beyond the basic FR, THD and SNR. That's half the reason many bought DS DACs and are now not happy.... complicated. But the reward is it is worth the hassle, I think it is, as long as you don't bankrupt yourself in the process... My view, go DIY or Kit, best SQ v Cost IMO. Then tweak away to suit your taste and system synergy. An SS DAC in my system may be nice, but may be another buy sell merry go round. A tubed Kit allows me to tweak the sound.
    Audioholic123 likes this.
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