[RRod]

  Elsewhere posted but very germain:  I have a great idea for some – they could blindfold themselves, add earplugs and experiment on making love to various consenting women (or women audiophiles to consenting men – like it would be a problem to find them). They could switch midstroke, to see if they could tell them apart. Those who have never had fun in the process could start getting laid science forums to prove that it is impossible to tell any difference between partners. Those of us who love, appreciate, enjoy, and treat our lovers well would end up with the best. To say nothing of enjoying life.

 
Oh look, now in addition to not liking music, we don't like sex either.

 

[Roly1650]

Oh look, now in addition to not liking music, we don't like sex either.

Yep, looks like Schitt have their demographic nailed......
Wonder what they paid for that "outstanding" marketing survey.

 

[castleofargh]

   

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

  There is nothing wrong with a low budget system. But an extremely high end one...

Ohh man the superior Fostex drivers ...

Be careful winding folk up with a 'high-end' system banner. I have not said that, but have promoted R-2R DACs and the Stax 009s, the KGSShv and even the BHSE and got shot down, there are many who like the Duck Shoot and will never shut up.
 
Going back to this debacle of a thread, it is provable that a certain DAC sounds different to anther DAC on the same system. It could be done with microphones for example. But I am unsure what use that would be. It still comes back to A/B listening and the ears. I understand one cannot in theory 'remember' the sound of a component weeks, months or even years later. BUT we can remember details in a specific (well known) track i.e. if you see a painting in a magazine, then see that painting in a  gallery, so will see better colour and more detail,, and realise that it is NEW information not heard (or seen) in the magazine photo. Likewise if you pass someone everyday in your street, say hello but never speak to them, when you DO speak to them, you look at their face and see a mole, or something else new. It is the same thing, a sensory awareness, and a measurable thing i.e. it is new to your brain, new information.
 
Also another measurable method is when I listen to music I have my own memory of how I think an orchestra should sound, a bass guitar, a drum kit, and if I recognise that sound in my system and I like it, and realise it is more accurate, then I give that DAC or whatever a thumbs up, or a mental score in levels.
 
So we have our own personal reference points that we amass over time, and if the person is an audiophile or keen musician, that person will have a 'golden ear' and a good judgement of how a product sounds, how good it is. Kids may like the typical V shaped happy ear speakers response curves (explains why radios and ear speakers have a bass boost feature for example), adults may have progressed beyond that impressionistic and unrealistic view.
 
You get my drift. I go back to listing and using your ears, try home demo's and against another unit at the same time. Some folk on this forum talk about this DAC or that Amplifier being the best they have heard, but many have changed speakers and source and other items since they sold that previous DAC, maybe that mental test is no longer accurate.... Ha Ha maybe we DO need a measurable system. Thing is there isn't one that will work or be of any use beyond the basic FR, THD and SNR. That's half the reason many bought DS DACs and are now not happy.... complicated. But the reward is it is worth the hassle, I think it is, as long as you don't bankrupt yourself in the process... My view, go DIY or Kit, best SQ v Cost IMO. Then tweak away to suit your taste and system synergy. An SS DAC in my system may be nice, but may be another buy sell merry go round. A tubed Kit allows me to tweak the sound.

 

 
people didn't come up with blind testing in all major industries because they were bored, or because testings were too accurate.  don't you even wonder why any serious trials are done with people not knowing what they test? doesn't that bring up any question to you? at all?  at first I thought it was simple ignorance, but even after all the people explaining this to you for pages, you stick to your narrow vision of the problem like you know what you're talking about. it's incredible! and kind of irritating.

 

[castleofargh]

 

Oh look, now in addition to not liking music, we don't like sex either.

Yep, looks like Schitt have their demographic nailed......
Wonder what they paid for that "outstanding" marketing survey.

now now, let's not create another nwavergate incident. you know you guys wouldn't be at the right end of the stick if things were to escalate.  he had zero obligation to come here and bother to post, I can't deny that I was hoping for a little more facts and a little less artistic philosophy, but apart from that, I'm not sure he deserves the cold shoulder.

 

[Roly1650]

now now, let's not create another nwavergate incident. you know you guys wouldn't be at the right end of the stick if things were to escalate.  he had zero obligation to come here and bother to post, I can't deny that I was hoping for a little more facts and a little less artistic philosophy, but apart from that, I'm not sure he deserves the cold shoulder.

Yes, you are 100% correct, but sometimes I can't avoid a pathetic attempt at humour, blame it on all those smutty British seaside postcards I saw growing up. No cold shoulder intended.

 

[astrostar59]

   
people didn't come up with blind testing in all major industries because they were bored, or because testings were too accurate.  don't you even wonder why any serious trials are done with people not knowing what they test? doesn't that bring up any question to you? at all?  at first I thought it was simple ignorance, but even after all the people explaining this to you for pages, you stick to your narrow vision of the problem like you know what you're talking about. it's incredible! and kind of irritating.

You are wanting the best piece of gear, you listen to said gear in your system in your home. You thus test that gear yourself, use your ears. It is the final word. Anything else is a 'guide' at best. Don't cling to 'tests'. If measurable, those measurements will be flawed at best. If a blind test it is done by others, you will need to use your own judgement before you buy. I never buy (or buy and keep) a component i don't like based on some review or blind test. This hobby is a personal journey, with sign posts along the way. Those sign posts don't say 'this is it' do they.....

 

[RRod]

 
now now, let's not create another nwavergate incident. you know you guys wouldn't be at the right end of the stick if things were to escalate.  he had zero obligation to come here and bother to post, I can't deny that I was hoping for a little more facts and a little less artistic philosophy, but apart from that, I'm not sure he deserves the cold shoulder.

 
It was all fine up until the last paragraph; I mean wth was that? But you're right, they pay da billz here.

 

[castleofargh]

 

   
people didn't come up with blind testing in all major industries because they were bored, or because testings were too accurate.  don't you even wonder why any serious trials are done with people not knowing what they test? doesn't that bring up any question to you? at all?  at first I thought it was simple ignorance, but even after all the people explaining this to you for pages, you stick to your narrow vision of the problem like you know what you're talking about. it's incredible! and kind of irritating.

You are wanting the best piece of gear, you listen to said gear in your system in your home. You thus test that gear yourself, use your ears. It is the final word. Anything else is a 'guide' at best. Don't cling to 'tests'. If measurable, those measurements will be flawed at best. If a blind test it is done by others, you will need to use your own judgment before you buy. I never buy (or buy and keep) a component i don't like based on some review or blind test. This hobby is a personal journey, with sign posts along the way. Those sign posts don't say 'this is it' do they.....

 
for starters we have been talking about the audibility of differences between 2 dacs for the past pages. not about wanting the best device.
 trying to find what you like and trying to prove you can hear the differences between 2 devices are completely different things.
my mother is very sure her homeopathic sugar pills work great, that's her feedback from her "personal journey". she knows, she goes home and take the pills, just like you say. at the same time, no medical experiment have succeeded in agreeing with her, and all the controlled tests show no better than placebo results.  I guess the medical community and their experiments are wrong and my mother is right? just like you're right about not needing to remove bias to be sure of your listening experience. and all the scientific communities are wrong for doing blind tests in trials when they can't get the data themselves through more objective methods.
 
thank you for opening my eyes to the allegory of the cave. who cares about the real world when I can make up mine in my head!
what? that's not the right message? well obviously Plato was wrong because I'm never wrong, it's my journey!  I'm going slightly mad in front of your total and steady ignorance of the factual problems.

 

[cjl]

  Folks -- if this post does not get deleted -- I would gather that from reading the majority of verbiage in the forum, that my life has been a complete exercise in futility since I built the first D/A converter ever in 1983 as well as dozens since then.  Or perhaps I am unaware that I delude myself into believing that I am an audio hardware huckster lurking in these forums and the marketplace  to wrest the last money from hapless audiophiles.
 
What I can tell you is that I know what I like with certainty.  What I also know is that what anyone else may like or not like is absolutely none of my business.  Even more so, I have no right to nor ever tell anyone else what is right or wrong for them, whether it be based on what I think is science, opinion, or fairy tale.
 
I choose to build a variety of digital audio products that I like, and let a free market decide.  The funny thing is - the intervening years have been enjoyable and fun beyond belief.  This is because if I want enjoy a hobby, I cannot take myself too seriously.  I have to be able to smile.  I am too old not to.
 
Elsewhere posted but very germain:  I have a great idea for some – they could blindfold themselves, add earplugs and experiment on making love to various consenting women (or women audiophiles to consenting men – like it would be a problem to find them). They could switch midstroke, to see if they could tell them apart. Those who have never had fun in the process could start getting laid science forums to prove that it is impossible to tell any difference between partners. Those of us who love, appreciate, enjoy, and treat our lovers well would end up with the best. To say nothing of enjoying life.

I don't feel like addressing this whole post right now, so I'll address 2 specific points:
 
1) You did not build the first D/A converter ever in 1983. They have been in existence and understood since at least the 1940s, possibly earlier depending on what exactly you consider to be a requirement of a DAC.
 
2) Your sex analogy is only valid if you think the only point of sex is the tactile sensation. If people were going around swearing that they could tell two partners apart by the feel of their hand on their back, or by the rhythm of the activity (to try not to go into too much detail here...), that would be an excellent way to test it (and besides, I suspect that in most cases, people would easily tell partners apart). At the end of the day though, the analogy is broken since nobody is going around looking for a relationship or for a sexual partner purely for the purpose of the tactile sensation, and appearance is definitely an integral part of the experience.
 
In the case of equipment whose primary and defining purpose is sound reproduction, since people claim that they can HEAR differences between audio components, asking them to tell them apart by ear makes rather a lot of sense. If people said "Sure, they don't really sound different, but I love the way that this DAC encased in marble looks on my end table, and that's worth $10k to me", I don't think anyone here in Sound Science would have a problem with that. It's when they start saying that there's a "night and day" difference, and that a $10k DAC is clearly better than a $1k DAC and anyone (including their wife in the kitchen) can hear the difference, I really don't think it's unreasonable to ask them to prove it.

 

[astrostar59]

   
for starters we have been talking about the audibility of differences between 2 dacs for the past pages. not about wanting the best device.
 trying to find what you like and trying to prove you can hear the differences between 2 devices are completely different things.
my mother is very sure her homeopathic sugar pills work great, that's her feedback from her "personal journey". she knows, she goes home and take the pills, just like you say. at the same time, no medical experiment have succeeded in agreeing with her, and all the controlled tests show no better than placebo results.  I guess the medical community and their experiments are wrong and my mother is right? just like you're right about not needing to remove bias to be sure of your listening experience. and all the scientific communities are wrong for doing blind tests in trials when they can't get the data themselves through more objective methods.
 
thank you for opening my eyes to the allegory of the cave. who cares about the real world when I can make up mine in my head!
what? that's not the right message? well obviously Plato was wrong because I'm never wrong, it's my journey!  I'm going slightly mad in front of your total and steady ignorance of the factual problems.

Ha Ha, incredible. I am talking about that as well, so we agree on something. If you can't let your own ears make a final judgement, how will you ever find a system you are happy with. Dude, there is a zillion of pages of measurements and reviews, blind tests, folk who swear blind (puin intended) etc etc. Only way is use your ears. Now, if you are saying you have heard DAC A and DAC B and you are saying something about that, say it, and it will be your opinion. Don't try and pin some measurements or hyperbole onto that statement to 'legalise it' make it as 'fact' This hobby is all about a personal journey, some go this way, others that....

 

[Articnoise]

  What part of the below didn't you understand? You have to prove what you claim to hear isn't a figment of your imagination inflated by the subjective medias constant reinforcement of exaggerated claims of heard differences. Don't drink the Kool-Aid, say I'm from Missouri, SHOW ME. Until anyone can PROVE they hear what they claim to hear through tightly controlled ABX-DBT tests they will forever remain exactly what they are, just someones opinion.
 
"I don't see how anyone, anywhere, could be daft/dense enough to not comprehend or admit to the fact that if there is an ACTUAL (as in, can be verified in blind a/b testing) audible difference between equipment, that there absolutely HAS to be some scientific, quantifiable means of measuring that difference.  Moreover, it just seems OBVIOUS to me (maybe because I have been learning about science my whole life and am not the kind of person to accept things based on blind faith or propaganda?) that the only way to establish ACTUALY audible differences is with blind testing, because sighted testing quite obviously causes there to be expectations and biases"

 

I do understand I just don’t agree. A big different isn’t it?

 

[Articnoise]

 My last post on this subject.

 

I think that the so called science many of you here are holding as a fact is based on some fundamental assumptions that I don’t agree on. Let me explain. Many of you kind of equal the signals that are used to make the measurements to the signal of music, or at least don’t make a big difference between them. They are not equal. We cannot even talk about apples and orange in regard to this as they are far too different to each other. So it boils down to; is a DAC for example made to play complex signals there multiple notes are played in different register at the same time? I will say yes to that. Do tools for making measurement playing complex signals there multiple nots are played in different register at the same time? I will have to say no. As they can’t do this they are only showing some aspects and also only one aspect at a time. So no real stress test that mimics playing real music in full swing.  

 

I repeat, measurements is a way of describe the technical capability one by one. If you listening to the tones that are used to make the measurements they don’t sound even remotely as any recorded music I have ever heard and they do not measure or have the structure even remotely like music. 

 

[sonitus mirus]

   

I do understand I just don’t agree. A big different isn’t it?

 
Then you believe any difference being heard can be attributed to what?  

 

[goodyfresh]

@castleofargh
 
I give up, dude.  Seriously.  I give up.  I started this thread in order to ask a simple question:  Are R2R DAC's really as "superior" to DS as so many people claim, and if so, how can we test that and prove it?  ANd it has turned into a debate of science-vs.-subjectivity/faith instead.  Should have known this would frigging happen.

 

[Sal1950]

   My last post on this subject.

 

I think that the so called science many of you here are holding as a fact is based on some fundamental assumptions that I don’t agree on. Let me explain. Many of you kind of equal the signals that are used to make the measurements to the signal of music, or at least don’t make a big difference between them. They are not equal. We cannot even talk about apples and orange in regard to this as they are far too different to each other. So it boils down to; is a DAC for example made to play complex signals there multiple notes are played in different register at the same time? I will say yes to that. Do tools for making measurement playing complex signals there multiple nots are played in different register at the same time? I will have to say no. As they can’t do this they are only showing some aspects and also only one aspect at a time. So no real stress test that mimics playing real music in full swing.  

 

I repeat, measurements is a way of describe the technical capability one by one. If you listening to the tones that are used to make the measurements they don’t sound even remotely as any recorded music I have ever heard and they do not measure or have the structure even remotely like music. 

We keep discussing LISTENING tests under controlled ABX-DBT conditions, using the EARS as you say.
But then you respond with a post against measurements. Whether your right or wrong on measurements your just ducking the LISTENING question.
I suspect because your scared to have your EARS put to the test so you post some BS response.