[moonboy403]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool bubba ice /img/forum/go_quote.gif The 650 is great in balanced drive. So good, infact, after selling my DAC1, needed emergency cash... I sold my 650.. SE didn't cut it anymore, especially with my current amp. I had my 650, SA5000, and 340 balanced... The 650/SA5000 showed a excellent improvement, the 340 didn't. Infact, I was trying to hear a difference with my balanced 340 to justify the cost of the balanced recable, thats when I told myself, forget about it..... Funny thing is, elias, the DAC1 head engineer, thinks balanced drive is BS for headphones. He said there would be more noise and sound worse then using the DAC1's SE amp section. Low ohm, like my 70ohm SA5000 would sound 'distorted.' I never heard the SA5000 sound so clean.. I urged him to try the 650's balanced using the DAC1.. He never responded.

Elias isn't the head engineer, it says application engineer on his signature. Moreover, he said that he listens to studio monitors 98% of the time and doesn't have much experience in headphones.

 

[royalcrown]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TStewart422 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Heh, as nice-looking as that amp is; it's a TAD above what I want to pay! I don't think it has a DAC anyway... I'm looking for DAC/Amps that will sufficiently power a HD-650. Oh yeah, and since I'm an Apple guy, the LOOKS of the amp definitely matter!

While that last sentence might disqualify this... you may want to check out getting the emu 0202 USB and a separate headphone amp. Your HD650's are high impedance, so you shouldn't have a problem with the higher output impedance of most pro amps (of course, there's still the XPH4). Pro headphone amps (at least in the case of the Samson S-amp, Presonus HP4, and SM audio XPH4, but I don't see why any other pro headphone amp would be exempt from this) have enough power to ruin pretty much any headphone in terms of loudness. The aesthetics of the XPH4 is just abysmal, however, and the HP4 and S-amp are only appealing if you like blue aluminum =/. The nice thing about this setup is that both the amps mentioned and the DAC are both compact and stackable. Nevertheless, it's 100 dollars below your price range and will provide transparent audio, if a bit more utilitarian in its looks.

 

[TStewart422]

Quote:

Originally Posted by royalcrown /img/forum/go_quote.gif While that last sentence might disqualify this... you may want to check out getting the emu 0202 USB and a separate headphone amp. Your HD650's are high impedance, so you shouldn't have a problem with the higher output impedance of most pro amps (of course, there's still the XPH4). Pro headphone amps (at least in the case of the Samson S-amp, Presonus HP4, and SM audio XPH4, but I don't see why any other pro headphone amp would be exempt from this) have enough power to ruin pretty much any headphone in terms of loudness. The aesthetics of the XPH4 is just abysmal, however, and the HP4 and S-amp are only appealing if you like blue aluminum =/. The nice thing about this setup is that both the amps mentioned and the DAC are both compact and stackable. Nevertheless, it's 100 dollars below your price range and will provide transparent audio, if a bit more utilitarian in its looks.

The Presonus seems to have good reviews online, but I'd rather get a combo. Do they simply not exist without looking like they need to be mounted in a rack?

Has anyone heard anything about the y1? It's possible I could mail MisterX to possibly get a CK²III/y1 combo for not too high of a price...

Edit: What about the Beresford TC-7520, NuForce Icon, or Travagan's White?

 

[sanderx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TStewart422 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Is a low output impedance all that really matters? Voltage or current don't make a difference? Right now, I'm trying to UNDERSTAND everything before diving in on a purchase. How much of those will I need to properly drive the 650s; I listen to them a lot more than the Grados, so they're the priority...

No, low output impedance is not all that matters. Voltage swing does play an important part and it will probably be inadequate in portable amplifiers running from a single 9V battery. The issue is simply that the 9V output of the battery is converted into +-4.5V dual supplies(*1) from which most amplifiers deduct an extra overhead. Most rechargable 9V batteries are also really 8.4V fully charged further complicating the situation. It is therefore considerably easier to just get an amplifier running from two 9V batteries if you are using high impedance headphones and forget about the chances of running into voltage clipping.

(*1) and it doesn't matter if this is done internally in the op-amp or externally

 

[sanderx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonboy403 /img/forum/go_quote.gif As of now, I do not have a dual XLR to 1/4" adapter. Moreover, I'm not interested in doing blind testing with the HD650 as I don't find any compelling reason to. It's not like I need to convince myself here. It's the skeptics that need proof on benefits of HD650 when driven balanced. So they can certainly do it themselves, not me.

Well, think of it as proving you don't just throw around big grandiose statements, not proving yourself there is a difference.

 

[sanderx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TStewart422 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Eh, it looks like the Compass is going to be a tad too big. I'm operating on kind of a small desk... does anyone have any recommendations on a Amp/DAC that is a bit smaller than the Compass?

Have you considered Meir Audio's Corda Swing ? It actually tell you it's output capabilities.

 

[royalcrown]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanderx /img/forum/go_quote.gif No, low output impedance is not all that matters. Voltage swing does play an important part and it will probably be inadequate in portable amplifiers running from a single 9V battery. The issue is simply that the 9V output of the battery is converted into +-4.5V dual supplies(*1) from which most amplifiers deduct an extra overhead. Most rechargable 9V batteries are also really 8.4V fully charged further complicating the situation. It is therefore considerably easier to just get an amplifier running from two 9V batteries if you are using high impedance headphones and forget about the chances of running into voltage clipping. (*1) and it doesn't matter if this is done internally in the op-amp or externally

To be fair, while this is a valid concern for portable amplifiers, this is by and large a non-issue when it comes to well-built headphone amps that plug into the wall. I've never seen a professional headphone amp (that wasn't an obscure shoddy one sold on a shady website) that lacked in voltage or current output.

 

[seacard]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanderx /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, think of it as proving you don't just throw around big grandiose statements, not proving yourself there is a difference.

I almost wish I never came across the Audio Critic or all of the scientific crap. People who think one power cord or one cable sounds better than another, actually hear the differences and enjoy their higher-end component more. I think the science/non-believer crowd discounts that enjoyment too quickly.

For example, Northwestern (or Chicago?) did a great study for people who underwent dental surgery. The patients were asked to rate how much pain they feel immediately after the procedure. Then, half got morphine, half got a placebo, and were again asked to rate their level pain. For those that got the placebo, their pain level went down about the same as for those that got morphine. In other words, even with a placebo, they felt less pain. Can you imagine somebody telling them that, no, you don't feel better? Their response, just like the response of somebody who buys Nordost cables, would be: "You're an idiot, I know how I feel and I am in a lot less pain. Maybe you have some kind of a defect or can't react to medicine, but this medicine makes me feel better."

So, if I believe that a $5000 wire is going to sound better than a $10 wire, it's not that they sound the same but I mistakenly believe there is a difference. Rather, I actually hear a difference, my brain treats the sounds as different, I enjoy the sound much more, and I'm happier. What is wrong with paying the money for the pleasure? If I know that they sound the same, I may not enjoy my hobby as much, just like if the placebo group is told they got a placebo, their pain comes back.

 

[haloxt]

There's truth to that, seacard, but it's a bad analogy. When people get cured from placebo they do so by the power of their minds, which de facto means their minds were not functioning right in the first place. Whether or not hearing differences in cables is due to a malfunctioning of the brain hasn't been determined to my satisfaction.

 

[Real Man of Genius]

Quote:

Originally Posted by seacard /img/forum/go_quote.gif I almost wish I never came across the Audio Critic or all of the scientific crap. People who think one power cord or one cable sounds better than another, actually hear the differences and enjoy their higher-end component more. I think the science/non-believer crowd discounts that enjoyment too quickly. For example, Northwestern (or Chicago?) did a great study for people who underwent dental surgery. The patients were asked to rate how much pain they feel immediately after the procedure. Then, half got morphine, half got a placebo, and were again asked to rate their level pain. For those that got the placebo, their pain level went down about the same as for those that got morphine. In other words, even with a placebo, they felt less pain. Can you imagine somebody telling them that, no, you don't feel better? Their response, just like the response of somebody who buys Nordost cables, would be: "You're an idiot, I know how I feel and I am in a lot less pain. Maybe you have some kind of a defect or can't react to medicine, but this medicine makes me feel better." So, if I believe that a $5000 wire is going to sound better than a $10 wire, it's not that they sound the same but I mistakenly believe there is a difference. Rather, I actually hear a difference, my brain treats the sounds as different, I enjoy the sound much more, and I'm happier. What is wrong with paying the money for the pleasure? If I know that they sound the same, I may not enjoy my hobby as much, just like if the placebo group is told they got a placebo, their pain comes back.

Perhaps it is possible to learn to "self-placebo" and reduce the pain anyway?

What if instead of having the viewpoint that placebo, once exposed, reduces the expensive cable to the level of the inexpensive one but rather elevates the inexpensive cable?
All the enjoyment, fraction of the expense.

Maybe you no longer have to buy placebo after you expose it. It's free.

 

[Dane]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif There's truth to that, seacard, but it's a bad analogy. When people get cured from placebo they do so by the power of their minds, which de facto means their minds were not functioning right in the first place. Whether or not hearing differences in cables is due to a malfunctioning of the brain hasn't been determined to my satisfaction.

Can't say that I've ever heard that before. It basically means that one third to half of the general population are mentally ill - then again, that would explain a great deal

 

[seacard]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif There's truth to that, seacard, but it's a bad analogy. When people get cured from placebo they do so by the power of their minds, which de facto means their minds were not functioning right in the first place. Whether or not hearing differences in cables is due to a malfunctioning of the brain hasn't been determined to my satisfaction.

I don't think this has anything to do with malfunctioning of the mind. In the dental study, endorphins were released in the brains of patients that got the placebo to mask the pain, but there was nothing wrong with their brain. There are studies that show that when a person smiles, even if its for no reason at all, that can release dopamine in the brain and make them happy. These reactions in the brain happen for lots of reasons, including the simple belief that they should happen.

I'm not quite ready to concede that the Behringer will sound the same as the Phoenix or the Apache or any other solid-state amp, but I would like to participate in a blind test, and would like to see others do the same.

 

[haloxt]

By malfunctioning of the mind, I mean simply they did not use their minds properly. If people are able to obtain permanent placebo cures (for the record, yes they sometimes do) then that means their diseases were functional in origin even if the manifestation of organic diseases vanish or are altered, a wild example: placebo improves someone's immune system and he fights off a disease, that means his immune system was compromised in the first place due to his mind not functioning with much efficiency. The same could be said about pain reduction by the power of the mind, some people have a great threshold for pain, don't get headaches, are always happy. If it takes placebo to coerce someone's mind to relieve pain or be cured of headaches and depression that means he wasn't using his mind right in the first place.

In other words, I think you need to distinguish between placebo cures and whether or not cable differences is 100% due to placebo. Unless you have determined that observations of cable differences is entirely due to placebo, I don't think you are doing justice to the issue by telling people to view cables with the way most people view the phenomena of placebo.

 

[sanderx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif There's truth to that, seacard, but it's a bad analogy. When people get cured from placebo they do so by the power of their minds, which de facto means their minds were not functioning right in the first place. Whether or not hearing differences in cables is due to a malfunctioning of the brain hasn't been determined to my satisfaction.

I really wish people who have know real idea what they are talking about stopped compapring any psychological effects that might cause one to prefer one audio device over another with the placebo effect in medicine. Because what you are presenting is basicly the urban legend version of it and has about the same amount of truth to it.

Or is there are particular reason you feel the need to talk about things you don't really understand?

 

[Sherwood]

Halo, you've got some real misconceptions about medicine.

Placebo works because the real thing works. Babies don't respond to placebo. We have the expectation that what we're given is effective, so (in some cases) that expectation turns out to be true. If, after your dental surgery, you were told to stare at a painting and it would relieve your pain, none of the respondents would report lower pain.

You seem to be repeating the old "mental illness is actually a shortcoming" nonsense. Just because someone can be treated without chemicals does not mean that they were sick because of something they did wrong.

I indulge heavily in placebo. My listening room is always clean, with the floor vacuumed, and it smells nice. This doesn't change the actual music, of course (unless I move some item that could affect reflections) but it makes a profound difference in my experience. Do you think it would not make a difference in yours?