PROPERLY Deciding On Amp/DAC

[Bullseye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonboy403 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Bulleyes, this is an honest question here: Have you heard the HD650 balanced? I JUST heard it for the first time and although one can argue that it isn't necessarily "better sounding", I can definitely tell you that it sounds different no matter what volume I listen at. From my experience here: A balanced HD650 sounds nothing like a single ended one.

My honest response is that I have not heard it, but I have another honest question to you:

When you have heard both (balanced and unbalanced), have the sound output levels been correctly matched?
If that is not the case then you have been comparing two different "sounds"...

 

[moonboy403]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullseye /img/forum/go_quote.gif My honest response is that I have not heard it, but I have another honest question to you: When you have heard both (balanced and unbalanced), have the sound output levels been correctly matched? If that is not the case then you have been comparing two different "sounds"...

It's true that I did not level match. However, what I'm saying is that the sound signature changes when driven balanced and single ended, to the point that you can say that you're listening to two different headphones. The sound signature stays whether volume is low or high so level matching isn't relevant in this case.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonboy403 /img/forum/go_quote.gif From my experience here: A balanced HD650 sounds nothing like a single ended one.

If you're going to start talking about actual experience with products, you're really going to screw things up. The Sound Science forum is to talk about what things are supposed to sound like.

 

[Donald North]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullseye /img/forum/go_quote.gif Mr North, I really dislike when someone like you that has a line of products "Donald North Audio" DNA Donald North Audio on-wall speakers on wall mount speakers bookshelf speakers high efficiency point source dipole loudspeakers vacuum tube SET triode headphone amplifier and an economical interest behind, spits something like "sound better balanced" without giving further explanation. Very little people, not my case, know what the IEC 61938 spec is, and for some who won't bother searching for it will just sound intelligent and will suffice for them. For other people it is not enough This is the sound science forum, and as such an explanation is always welcome/expected -in most cases-.

Sure, I have commented before on the IEC 61938 specification of 5Vrms with 120 ohm output impedance for driving headphones. Here are some links:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f133/q...ml#post5777765

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f4/wha...ml#post5749154

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/otl...4/#post5675964

Also see Meier Audio's site:
http://ww.meier-audio.com
And click on "tips & tricks".

 

[Sherwood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you're going to start talking about actual experience with products, you're really going to screw things up. The Sound Science forum is to talk about what things are supposed to sound like.

Wow, Phil, you've really got a bone to pick over here, don't you?

 

[Bullseye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonboy403 /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's true that I did not level match. However, what I'm saying is that the sound signature changes when driven balanced and single ended, to the point that you can say that you're listening to two different headphones. The sound signature stays whether volume is low or high so level matching isn't relevant in this case.

And don't you think that impression might derive (speculating as there are so many options) from all the impressions you have read on the forums about how wonderful balanced is, due to the hype of listening to your first "balanced sennheiser setup", due to your mood and disposition to hear something different, placebo, etc??

Thanks for those links, Donald. Edit: (even if what you say is biased due to your products and shop) About Meier's link -apart from not showing- it is also not a very good example, as there are also economical interests behind. That doesn't mean that what they are saying is untrue, but in these cases it might mean that they are hiding something, that will most likely contradict in some way what they are saying. It is very often that way

 

[moonboy403]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullseye /img/forum/go_quote.gif And don't you think that impression might derive (speculating as there are so many options) from all the impressions you have read on the forums about how wonderful balanced is, due to the hype of listening to your first "balanced sennheiser setup", due to your mood and disposition to hear something different, placebo, etc??

No because I was skeptical of the benefits deriving from balance drive myself.

 

[Donald North]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullseye /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks for those links, Donald. Edit: (even if what you say is biased due to your products and shop) About Meier's link -apart from not showing- it is also not a very good example, as there are also economical interests behind. That doesn't mean that what they are saying is untrue, but in these cases it might mean that they are hiding something, that will most likely contradict in some way what they are saying. It is very often that way

On Meier's site, you need to click on "tips & tricks" where he discusses output impedance and headphone frequency response.

Here are some sites with no economical interest:
Headphone driving circuit

HeadWize - Headphone FAQs

 

[Bullseye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonboy403 /img/forum/go_quote.gif No because I was skeptical of the benefits deriving from balance drive myself.

That doesn't make you absolutely immune to all the things I previously said, counting that volume output was not matched.

 

[moonboy403]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullseye /img/forum/go_quote.gif That doesn't make you absolutely immune to all the things I previously said, counting that volume output was not matched.

If you have a chance, level match and blind test it yourself. That's all I can tell ya.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sherwood /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wow, Phil, you've really got a bone to pick over here, don't you?

I've taken lessons from some of my "skeptic" friends on how to pop into threads and "pick bones."

Anyway, you have to concede that, on Head-Fi, it is a frequent occurrence that people talk about what something sounds like, or should sound like, without having ever heard it.

 

[Bullseye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donald North /img/forum/go_quote.gif On Meier's site, you need to click on "tips & tricks" where he discusses output impedance and headphone frequency response. Here are some sites with no economical interest: Headphone driving circuit HeadWize - Headphone FAQs

Thank you for that.

But that still doesn't respond to the assertion that "balanced sounds better than SE"

Quote:

If you have a chance, level match and blind test it yourself. That's all I can tell ya.

I will do so if I get the chance

Meanwhile i will try to find any flaw in my thinking and error in my conclusions when "comparing" two headphones. That way I will try not to be fooled by my ears (even if it is difficult)

 

[Donald North]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullseye /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thank you for that. But that still doesn't respond to the assertion that "balanced sounds better than SE"

I meant "sound better balanced tonally" not "sound better balanced driven than single ended driven" - sorry for the confusion.

 

[JaZZ]

Anyway, I can confirm that balanced drive has a positive effect – as much as I dislike(d) it – because I didn't see any technical aspect which would provide a sonic improvement / higher signal accuracy. The often stated «push-pull drive» is a rather misguided attempt to explain it: you don't need both poles to be driven for a symmetrical drive, since single-ended amps create an electrical potential toward both poles as well. But apparently there's something to it, as the balanced/single-ended switch on an SFT Dynamight showed; BTW without altering the volume level.

Meanwhile I have some experience with «semi-balanced» (balanced ground) Meier amps, which offer a comparable improvement compared to their single-ended predecessors in terms of clarity, transparency and resolution.

Note: Not everything that's not measurable (with standard measuring procedures) is non-existent!

.

 

[haloxt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullseye /img/forum/go_quote.gif I will do so if I get the chance Meanwhile i will try to find any flaw in my thinking and error in my conclusions when "comparing" two headphones. That way I will try not to be fooled by my ears (even if it is difficult)

I am often reminded of this passage from an old book, Zen in the art of archery:

"Your difficulty is that you do not let go of yourself. You brace yourself for failure. You do not wait for fulfilment. It should happen independently of you, of your idea of doing right. You must learn to wait properly."