PROPERLY Deciding On Amp/DAC

[royalcrown]

Quote:

Originally Posted by seacard /img/forum/go_quote.gif For example, Northwestern (or Chicago?) did a great study for people who underwent dental surgery. The patients were asked to rate how much pain they feel immediately after the procedure. Then, half got morphine, half got a placebo, and were again asked to rate their level pain. For those that got the placebo, their pain level went down about the same as for those that got morphine. In other words, even with a placebo, they felt less pain. Can you imagine somebody telling them that, no, you don't feel better? Their response, just like the response of somebody who buys Nordost cables, would be: "You're an idiot, I know how I feel and I am in a lot less pain. Maybe you have some kind of a defect or can't react to medicine, but this medicine makes me feel better."

Giving patients a placebo while telling them it's morphine (and charging the same price as a morphine injection) is unethical in more ways than I can count.

That said, that study sounds very shady, especially if it was done by Chicago or NU, because morphine has been shown hundreds of times to have clinical efficacy above and beyond a placebo. Plus, FDA approval mandates a clinical double blind trial that proves its efficacy against a placebo. You might have a case for FDA approval being bunk if this was some new drug, but it's morphine. It's been used for years and years for its effectiveness in fighting pain.

 

[Sherwood]

This sort of survey is totally possible, but it would have to be 50+ years old before human subjects testing was regulated by University Ethics Boards.

You're on point re: the morphine, however. My experience with morphine is that it takes your 7 to a 0. It is bottled heaven, and if it were legal I'd be dead.

 

[haloxt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanderx /img/forum/go_quote.gif I really wish people who have know real idea what they are talking about stopped compapring any psychological effects that might cause one to prefer one audio device over another with the placebo effect in medicine. Because what you are presenting is basicly the urban legend version of it and has about the same amount of truth to it. Or is there are particular reason you feel the need to talk about things you don't really understand?

Reread what you quoted, I am telling people to stop comparing medical placebo with audio electronics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sherwood /img/forum/go_quote.gif Halo, you've got some real misconceptions about medicine. Placebo works because the real thing works. Babies don't respond to placebo. We have the expectation that what we're given is effective, so (in some cases) that expectation turns out to be true. If, after your dental surgery, you were told to stare at a painting and it would relieve your pain, none of the respondents would report lower pain. You seem to be repeating the old "mental illness is actually a shortcoming" nonsense. Just because someone can be treated without chemicals does not mean that they were sick because of something they did wrong. I indulge heavily in placebo. My listening room is always clean, with the floor vacuumed, and it smells nice. This doesn't change the actual music, of course (unless I move some item that could affect reflections) but it makes a profound difference in my experience. Do you think it would not make a difference in yours?

I don't misunderstand placebo, you misunderstand what I wrote. If something can be permanently cured by means of suggestion which does happen sometimes, what do you think induced the disease or pain in the first place?

 

[Sherwood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif If something can be permanently cured by means of suggestion which does happen sometimes, what do you think induced the disease or pain in the first place?

I can completely fix a car with tools, does that mean that tools broke the car? Does it mean that improper use of tools broke the car? Your basic assumption, as I read it, is flawed.

 

[haloxt]

A better example would be a car with a computer, you see manifestations of mechanical errors caused by quirks in the software. Try my basic assumption in that scenario.

Also I wish I didn't have to talk this in depth, but it was really getting to me seeing people justifying allowing people to believe in cables. First of all unless you're certain they are suffering from placebo, telling people to leave them alone because they must enjoy suffering from mental illusions is not a good thing. It is not a good thing, and is identical to telling people after a placebo study that they were given placebos and then the placebo wears off. But of course, sometimes the cure is permanent.

 

[seacard]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif A better example would be a car with a computer, you see manifestations of mechanical errors caused by quirks in the software. Try my basic assumption in that scenario. Also I wish I didn't have to talk this in depth, but it was really getting to me seeing people justifying allowing people to believe in cables. First of all unless you're certain they are suffering from placebo, telling people to leave them alone because they must enjoy suffering from mental illusions is a good thing. It is not a good thing, and is identical to telling people after a placebo study that they were given placebos and then the placebo wears off. But of course, sometimes the cure is permanent

Isn't the same brain responsible for telling us that something hurts also used to tell us whether something sounds good? All pain is manifested by a signal to our brain. I'm confused by how the placebo effect would operate differently in two situations. If I feel a pain in my stomach, take a placebo pill, and that pain goes away, I still had a pain in my stomach, right? Or would you say that I had a mental problem that made me think I had a pain in my stomach? And it went away because of a change in the chemical composition of my brain.

Suffering from placebo? Nobody suffers from it, it's a natural part of how our brains work. My point was that people who like one cable over another are not dilusional or imagining an improvement, but rather that the sound is *actually better* in their brains.

 

[haloxt]

seacard, are you going to tell someone who received a real drug that he was actually given a placebo? You might be doing just that when you talk about leaving pro-cablers with their placebo, which may or may not be placebo. Have you determined that pro-cablers are suffering from placebo with 100% certainty? Until you have I'd rather you not say they are suffering from placebo.

 

[seacard]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif seacard, are you going to tell someone who received a real drug that he was actually given a placebo?

If a drug company said that "we have created a miracle drug that makes you feel great, take a look at these 10 people who took the drug and all feel great," I would certainly ask whether or not there was a control group that took a placebo, and question why those people feel great. Especially if there was no science behind the drug. And especially if the drug cost $1000. Wouldn't you?

 

[haloxt]

That's irrelevant. I'll say it again, have you decided if what pro-cablers observe as cable differences can be wholly attributed to the placebo effect? If not then you are doing a disservice to both people trying to understand the issue of placebo and the people who may or may not be suffering from it.

 

[seacard]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's irrelevant. I'll say it again, have you decided if what pro-cablers observe as cable differences can be wholly attributed to the placebo effect? If not then you are doing a disservice to both people trying to understand the issue of placebo and the people who may or may not be suffering from it.

I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree, or, more accurately, agree that we are not understanding each other. I haven't decided anything -- I am not God, and just because our current scientific knowledge says that there is no difference between two cables with identical specs, there may indeed be a difference that will eventually be discovered. My point was that even if there shouldn't be a difference, or even if they couldn't identify a difference in a blind test, the pro-cable crowd indeed hears a difference and it makes them enjoy their music more. I honestly cannot even begin to fathom how that is a disservice to anybody, so we must be thinking on completely different planes altogether.

 

[haloxt]

The problem is when you say anti-cablers should leave pro-cablers alone because there is a chance they may be enjoying their placebo. I do agree that anti-cablers should stop harassing pro-cablers but not because it's nice to leave people in placebo. I think anti-cablers should stop harassing pro-cablers because they aren't having any constructive discussions and are just irritating pro-cablers.

 

[seacard]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif The problem is when you say anti-cablers should leave pro-cablers alone because there is a chance they may be enjoying their placebo. I do agree that anti-cablers should stop harassing pro-cablers but not because it's nice to leave people in placebo. I think anti-cablers should stop harassing pro-cablers because they aren't having any constructive discussions and are just irritating pro-cablers.

I don't think I've ever said that anybody should leave anybody alone. Heck, this is a discussion forum, so it would be bad if anybody left anybody alone.

I just said that the anti-cable crowd discounts too quickly that the pro-cable crowd actually hears a difference (i.e. not that they are tricked into believing there is a difference, but rather that their brain hears one sound wave differently than another, even when they are the same). But I am all for having a debate, although my preference would be to hear scientific evidence from the pro-cable crowd as to why there is a difference, or why we can't detect any difference with current technology, but even if Stereophile wants to tell me that there is a night and day difference between one power cord and another, I'm willing to listen.

 

[haloxt]

Many pro-cablers aren't interested in having scientific evidence of that sort, so don't expect it. Also Wavoman in other threads gives good theories as to why double blind tests to date have failed to prove cable differences. If you don't think the last word has been spoken on a subject, there is no need to defend your opinion as fact, no need to accuse others of being wrong, and most importantly, no need to feel you're wrong. Patience is a virtue, and people should be like me, hold their judgments on unclear topics in abeyance.

 

[seacard]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif Many pro-cablers aren't interested in having scientific evidence of that sort, so don't expect it. Also Wavoman in other threads gives good theories as to why double blind tests to date have failed to prove cable differences. If you don't think the last word has been spoken on a subject, there is no need to defend your opinion as fact, no need to accuse others of being wrong, and most importantly, no need to feel you're wrong. Patience is a virtue, and people should be like me, hold their judgments on unclear topics in abeyance.

But life is short, and when a new cable comes out that Stereophile says makes a night and day difference, or is like a window to the sound, or is like the sound of nothing, or whatever phrase they use for every new cable, I want to know if that's true. If it is, I want to own it. When somebody says "you must be deaf if you don't hear a difference between this power cable and that power cable," I indeed want to make sure that I'm not deaf if I don't hear it. Otherwise, I'm wasting my short life in the wrong hobby. In other words, I want to hear proof and not just take a wait and see approach with every component.

 

[TStewart422]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanderx /img/forum/go_quote.gif Have you considered Meir Audio's Corda Swing ? It actually tell you it's output capabilities.

Eh, looks nice enough, but I would prefer a combo. Not much desk space, you know. Btw: I found the specs for the Compass...

Power Output: - 32 Ohm load - 2W output max (not long term)
150 Ohm load - 600 mW (long term)
250 Ohm load - 350 mW (long term)
300 Ohm load - 300 mW (long term)
600 Ohm load - 150 mW (long term)

Doing the calculations; it appears that it will be able to drive just about anything thrown at it. Only downside; the size. Why can't I find a powerful DAC/Amp that will fit on a desktop? The best one size-wise is the Headroom Desktop Amp/DAC, but I'm not spending $1000 on something when I can get something with the same performance for $300...