[HiHead Hunter]

  While I don't have a 6SN7 Sylvania, the other 2 tubes are quite similar in the Ember.  I think it takes a little time to get used to listening for the slight differences in tubes, many say that this or that tube is a big improvement but in my experience the differences are quite subtle most of the time.
 
A great learning tool is the Golden Ear program (just found out that it was shut down

)
 
But you can try this: http://harmanhowtolisten.blogspot.de/
 
One way of listening for the differences is try changing the output resistance/impedance on the Ember with the HD-650, you will need to adjust the volume also but you should be able to hear the slight differences in the how the highs are presented and how the tightness of the bass is affected.  You can change the jumper setting while the amp is on so the changes happen in real time, just try to match the volume as close as possible.

Thanks for that link, I'll check it out soon. Indeed I have experimented with the output resistance settings and have found that there is a very noticeable differencet between high, mid and low. I like high the best on all three of my tubes. The sound on mid seems to highlight the mids more and also expand the soundstage, unnaturally to my ears. But the difference between the output resistance settings is much larger than the difference between the tubes. The input gain doesn't seem to have any other effect except to increase or decrease the volume. I am using high gain as with low I'm usually in the 2-3 o'clock position, which for some reason I find abnormal as I'm used to integrated amps where I'm normally in the 9-11 o'clock.

 

[HiHead Hunter]

  Hi Hihead Hunter. 
 
For Classical I find the HD650 benefits from a cool, clear tube. That's just the way my ears like it, and for this I prefer the 6DJ8, ECC88, E88CC tube types. If you can source a Tungsram, Tesla, Bugle Boy, GE smoked/dark glass, or an E80CC Tungsram, and listen to some smaller scale baroque chamber music- Bach, Handel, Corelli, Vivaldi etc are ideal, I think you should hear the difference from the tubes you already have. Solo piano and violin are also good to discern differences as are vocals, Lieder particularly, where the resonance of the voice can vary greatly from tube to tube.
I can't say you will prefer the sound to what you already have but you should begin to appreciate the fantastic potential Ember offers for the benefits of tube rolling.
 
I should add that once you start to pick up the sonic differences they then become obvious thereafter-and tube rolling can become very addictive!

Thanks. When you said "if you can source" some tubes, do you mean that I would need an adapter for them to fit? I only have the 6sn7 adapter. 

 

[HiHead Hunter]

  Try listening for what is missing instead of hearing something new improved. It may require you listening to 1 tube for a week or more then move to the next tube for a week or so and see if you are missing something in the presentation

Yeah, I will try this approach next. Although at some point I'm hoping to get to a sound I like(I think I'm there now, almost) and focus on the music rather than constantly trying to find something better sonically. I was just really surprised that the differences between the tubes were not as pronounces as the impression I got from reading a lot of the reviews.

 

[DavidA]

  Thanks for that link, I'll check it out soon. Indeed I have experimented with the output resistance settings and have found that there is a very noticeable differencet between high, mid and low. I like high the best on all three of my tubes. The sound on mid seems to highlight the mids more and also expand the soundstage, unnaturally to my ears. But the difference between the output resistance settings is much larger than the difference between the tubes. The input gain doesn't seem to have any other effect except to increase or decrease the volume. I am using high gain as with low I'm usually in the 2-3 o'clock position, which for some reason I find abnormal as I'm used to integrated amps where I'm normally in the 9-11 o'clock.

I have my input gain on low and don't get pass 11 with any headphone and this is with a 12AU7 Telefunken, if I use a 12AT7 I get even less volume pot range before it gets to loud.
 
With the HD-650 I also get the best sound with the high setting and you are right that the output resistance setting will usually have a larger effect than the tube but not always.  Looks like you are well on your way.  The advice that @HOWIE13 and @joespride is solid and something I will also try.

 

[HiHead Hunter]

  I have my input gain on low and don't get pass 11 with any headphone and this is with a 12AU7 Telefunken, if I use a 12AT7 I get even less volume pot range before it gets to loud.
 
With the HD-650 I also get the best sound with the high setting and you are right that the output resistance setting will usually have a larger effect than the tube but not always.  Looks like you are well on your way.  The advice that @HOWIE13 and @joespride is solid and something I will also try.

Interesting about the gain. It probably doesn't matter but my COD is taking over and must muse over this. I am using a high output CD player for source (if I use it with an integrated amp, I don't usually go past 10 as it gets very loud) and even on non-classical music, which tends to have lower volume than non-classical, I still go to around 2 for normal listening. I wonder if your Ember is different from mine. I read somewhere that there was a change to decrease the volume output on low gain in Ember done some time last year. 

 

[DavidA]

  Interesting about the gain. It probably doesn't matter but my COD is taking over and must muse over this. I am using a high output CD player for source (if I use it with an integrated amp, I don't usually go past 10 as it gets very loud) and even on non-classical music, which tends to have lower volume than non-classical, I still go to around 2 for normal listening. I wonder if your Ember is different from mine. I read somewhere that there was a change to decrease the volume output on low gain in Ember done some time last year. 

I think its because mine is the original Ember, not the second generation, don't worry about this.

 

[HOWIE13]

  Thanks. When you said "if you can source" some tubes, do you mean that I would need an adapter for them to fit? I only have the 6sn7 adapter. 

No you don't need any adapter for those tube types I suggested. They just slot into Ember's socket directly, like your 12AU7 and 6N6P, and Ember does the rest. 

 

 

[HOWIE13]

  Interesting about the gain. It probably doesn't matter but my COD is taking over and must muse over this. I am using a high output CD player for source (if I use it with an integrated amp, I don't usually go past 10 as it gets very loud) and even on non-classical music, which tends to have lower volume than non-classical, I still go to around 2 for normal listening. I wonder if your Ember is different from mine. I read somewhere that there was a change to decrease the volume output on low gain in Ember done some time last year. 

The input gain attenuator is to use with high sensitivity, low impedance headphones so you don't max out on your vol pot too soon, especially below 9 o'clock where there may be some channel imbalance.
For the HD 650 and for most of even my more sensitive headphones I usually leave the gain on high/non-attenuated. Only when I want to listen to music at extremely low volume do I invoke the input gain attenuation module.
There may be differences between different models as Jeremy may have used different module resistor values over time.
You can also make your own modules, choosing your own resistor values if the module supplied isn't suitable. It's just a simple Dip-8 socket, Jeremy sells them.

 

[HiHead Hunter]

  I think its because mine is the original Ember, not the second generation, don't worry about this.

Yep. Thanks.

 

[HiHead Hunter]

  No you don't need any adapter for those tube types I suggested. They just slot into Ember's socket directly, like your 12AU7 and 6N6P, and Ember does the rest. 

 

Cool. Thanks. I wish there were a local tubes shop where I can try them and get the ones I like. Going by what others like on the internet is hit-and-miss. 

 

[HiHead Hunter]

  The input gain attenuator is to use with high sensitivity, low impedance headphones so you don't max out on your vol pot too soon, especially below 9 o'clock where there may be some channel imbalance.
For the HD 650 and for most of even my more sensitive headphones I usually leave the gain on high/non-attenuated. Only when I want to listen to music at extremely low volume do I invoke the input gain attenuation module.
There may be differences between different models as Jeremy may have used different module resistor values over time.
You can also make your own modules, choosing your own resistor values if the module supplied isn't suitable. It's just a simple Dip-8 socket, Jeremy sells them.

Good to know, thanks.

 

[HOWIE13]

  Cool. Thanks. I wish there were a local tubes shop where I can try them and get the ones I like. Going by what others like on the internet is hit-and-miss. 

So far, eBay has been fine for me. I must have bought a hundred or so tubes in the last two years and only 2 or 3 didn't work. They were immediately replaced without any problem.
I won't buy from a seller who won't accept returns.
There are some inaccurate descriptions but mostly the tubes for Ember, at least the 9 pin ones, are ubiquitous. Some of the descriptions for Octals, though, can be more dodgy.
Good luck!

 

[DavidA]

  Cool. Thanks. I wish there were a local tubes shop where I can try them and get the ones I like. Going by what others like on the internet is hit-and-miss. 

Every tube I've gotten from Ebay has worked and for the most parts very good.  As @HOWIE13 noted, make sure that the vendor has a good return policy.

 

[mikesale]

  Now before you ask, there is nothing wrong with my hearing and I listen with an ear for lots of detail. All music I listen to is classical and have been testing the tubes with orchestral pieces. So I'm baffled. Are the 3 tubes I got so similar? Those who have listened to them, can you hear a distinct difference? Right now the only benefit of the Ember over the NAD is that it is much more portable. Oh, and I do like the sound of it but as you can guess I also like the sound of the NAD,

 
You may want to branch out in your music selection as well to some chamber music. Orchestral music tends to be highly textured and complex (one of the reasons I love it so and am a subscriber to my local orchestra). I found the following classical works great for comparisons, but you'll need to spend many hours to get a valid comparison:

1. Starker Bach Cello suites (Mercury Live Presence)
2. Kodama Beethoven Piano Sonatas (Pentatone)
3. Fliter Chopin Preludes
4. Emerson Quartet Schubert Death and the Maiden
5. Grimaud/Gabetta "Duo" album
6. Pires Chopin Nocturnes

Familiarity with the recording is important. I suspect you have others that you will find helpful.
 
If you're an orchestra only person, check out some of the amazing recordings on the "Reference Recordings" label. The dynamics and texture of the recordings are ecstatic at times! Particularly great for auditions are Eiji Oue doing Fanfare of the Common Man and Firebird.
 
Again, taking hours to become intimate with the recordings on your equipment is key to recognizing the differences in the same way a musician can understand a the beauty of a piece performed that they're intimately familiar with (or be brought to great emotion by it's failed performance). Once you have those hours logged, you begin to notice things missing and added when you swap out equipment. 

 

[HiHead Hunter]

   
You may want to branch out in your music selection as well to some chamber music. Orchestral music tends to be highly textured and complex (one of the reasons I love it so and am a subscriber to my local orchestra). I found the following classical works great for comparisons, but you'll need to spend many hours to get a valid comparison:

1. Starker Bach Cello suites (Mercury Live Presence)
2. Kodama Beethoven Piano Sonatas (Pentatone)
3. Fliter Chopin Preludes
4. Emerson Quartet Schubert Death and the Maiden
5. Grimaud/Gabetta "Duo" album
6. Pires Chopin Nocturnes

Familiarity with the recording is important. I suspect you have others that you will find helpful.
 
If you're an orchestra only person, check out some of the amazing recordings on the "Reference Recordings" label. The dynamics and texture of the recordings are ecstatic at times! Particularly great for auditions are Eiji Oue doing Fanfare of the Common Man and Firebird.
 
Again, taking hours to become intimate with the recordings on your equipment is key to recognizing the differences in the same way a musician can understand a the beauty of a piece performed that they're intimately familiar with (or be brought to great emotion by it's failed performance). Once you have those hours logged, you begin to notice things missing and added when you swap out equipment. 

Hey, thanks for your thoughts. No, I'm not just an orchestra person. I listen to lots of chamber and solo piano music (and the Bach cello suites) but was focusing on orchestral music for my initial week of comparison. I am very intimately familiar with the music I was playing: I know exactly how the woodwinds sound in certain passages, exactly how sweet massed violins sound, exactly how impactful a timpani stroke is, how the cellos and basses sing, etc. and was looking for differences in those details and overall sound as well.
 
Incidentally, I do have the Eiji recording of the Firebird and Rite of Spring and it was one of the CDs I played. It's one of a handful of HDCDs I have.