[DaveStarWalker]

I find very disappointing we don't get impulse type measurements from current tech reviews as it can often show if the drivers are in time/working together. Makes a huge difference in coherency of multi driver devices. I suspect some IEMs sound open or more out of head due to some phase/time anomalies.

Totally... In phase, so to speak.

 

[iatransducer]

I suspect some IEMs sound open or more out of head due to some phase/time anomalies.

Yes, I think recreating what happens at the pinna inside the IEM itself is what creates perceived soundstage in IEMs. I think that is what that module in the campfire Andromeda does.

 

[GrBm]

Phase refers to timing differences of one signal in relation to another, normally between left and right speakers or delay created by crossovers. What most of you seem to being thinking about would have to be done by, for example, delaying and lowering the volume of one guitar in relation to another or other instruments in the same frequency range which can’t be done outside of mastering a music file (if you have each guitar recorded separately) or sending the signal for the first guitar to speaker A and the signal for 2nd guitar to speaker B. We’d need a new music format and all new equipment for that to be possible.



With IEMs there isn’t much positive you could do with phase. You can only delay, for example, all drivers playing midrange*, but that would put the primary notes from a guitar out of phase with its harmonics (not at all ideal), the midrange notes of a piano out of time with the low/higher notes etc. Other than that there’s nothing that can be done with phase to increase sound stage size on the reproduction side even with a very good DSP. Other than adding additional drivers and messing with them to mimic echos in a larger room.



* which would effect everything in that pass-band; every guitar, parts of every piano and voice etc. Which obviously wouldn’t be a net positive. You COULD delay one midrange driver out of 2 in left and right sides but,… that’d just make everything sound off even if it didn’t create phase cancellation.

 

[iatransducer]

Phase refers to timing differences of one signal in relation to another, normally between left and right speakers or delay created by crossovers. What most of you seem to being thinking about would have to be done by, for example, delaying and lowering the volume of one guitar in relation to another or other instruments in the same frequency range which can’t be done outside of mastering a music file (if you have each guitar recorded separately) or sending the signal for the first guitar to speaker A and the signal for 2nd guitar to speaker B. We’d need a new music format and all new equipment for that to be possible.



With IEMs there isn’t much positive you could do with phase. You can only delay, for example, all drivers playing midrange*, but that would put the primary notes from a guitar out of phase with its harmonics (not at all ideal), the midrange notes of a piano out of time with the low/higher notes etc. Other than that there’s nothing that can be done with phase to increase sound stage size on the reproduction side even with a very good DSP. Other than adding additional drivers and messing with them to mimic echos in a larger room.



* which would effect everything in that pass-band; every guitar, parts of every piano and voice etc. Which obviously wouldn’t be a net positive. You COULD delay one midrange driver out of 2 in left and right sides but,… that’d just make everything sound off even if it didn’t create phase cancellation.

Yeah, I had no idea what phase was, so I assumed they created soundstage through some magic I don't understand. I was thinking there could be some module that recreates what happens in your pinna to make soundstage. How would you think that would be created?

 

[Valsi203]

HI Precog, are you going to review the VISION EARS EXT?

 

[goodvibes]

Yes, I think recreating what happens at the pinna inside the IEM itself is what creates perceived soundstage in IEMs. I think that is what that module in the campfire Andromeda does.

Those wouldn't necessarily be anomalies but they certainly tend to sound open. Could just be they found a way to lessen ear canal issues or couple better or decouple better or...

 

[iatransducer]

Those wouldn't necessarily be anomalies but they certainly tend to sound open. Could just be they found a way to lessen ear canal issues or couple better or decouple better or...

I have questions. Forgive me for my ignorance, but how do ear canal and/or coupler issues affect perceived with soundstage?

 

[goodvibes]

I have questions. Forgive me for my ignorance, but how do ear canal and/or coupler issues affect perceived with soundstage?

Beats me and may not but I wanted to dissuade the thought that campfire may sound open due to anomalies. I didn't mean to imply it was why they sound open as I really don't know. Why all the 'or's in the reply. No revelations here. I'm equally as ignorant.

 

[Fargeg]

Yes, I think recreating what happens at the pinna inside the IEM itself is what creates perceived soundstage in IEMs.

While I wouldn't call what's happening phase anomalies, this kind of applies. Among other things the pinna does, pinna phase cancellation does create an FR dip in the treble, with its location depending on the angle of the originating sound source and being used for audio localization.

Rtings is the only objectivist audiophile group I know that actually tries measuring and publicly publishing the effects of pinna activation on FR, as opposed to the crowd blindly worshipping the Harman/DF curves:



(Note that this doesn't take into account other contributing factors to HRTF)

And if you look at quality treble measurements of IEMs or headphones with a reputation for sounding spacious, like the IER-Z1R, you'll usually notice a similar pattern of peaks and dips, particularly the respectably sized upper treble peak and the FR notches at ~5 kHz and ~10 kHz:



If you know exactly what to listen for, you can even EQ such features into other IEMs. My Moondrop Variations lacks depth because the 4-7 kHz range is smooth, so I apply a curve like this:

 

[goodvibes]

While I wouldn't call what's happening phase anomalies, this kind of applies. Among other things the pinna does, pinna phase cancellation does create an FR dip in the treble, with its location depending on the angle of the originating sound source and being used for audio localization.

Rtings is the only objectivist audiophile group I know that actually tries measuring and publicly publishing the effects of pinna activation on FR, as opposed to the crowd blindly worshipping the Harman/DF curves:



(Note that this doesn't take into account other contributing factors to HRTF)

And if you look at quality treble measurements of IEMs or headphones with a reputation for sounding spacious, like the IER-Z1R, you'll usually notice a similar pattern of peaks and dips, particularly the respectably sized upper treble peak and the FR notches at ~5 kHz and ~10 kHz:



If you know exactly what to listen for, you can even EQ such features into other IEMs. My Moondrop Variations lacks depth because the 4-7 kHz range is smooth, so I apply a curve like this:

I think that's a bit biased. Etymotic did a ton of frequency tests with real humans before coming up with their target curve which has very similar pinna gain to Harmon. None are perfect and I suspect ear geometries effect things somewhat but...

 

[o0genesis0o]

Beats me and may not but I wanted to dissuade the thought that campfire may sound open due to anomalies. I didn't mean to imply it was why they sound open as I really don't know. Why all the 'or's in the reply. No revelations here. I'm equally as ignorant.

It might have something to do with the subdued ear gain, good treble performance and great resolution. The subdued ear gain pushes everything further, so “larger” stage. Good treble reveals the nuanced room reverb, decay and other good bits in the background, so the “large” stage is not truncated and empty. Finally, good resolution prevents sound from meshing together but form neat layers from closer to further away.

To think about it, most IEMs well known for staging (IE300 , IE900, JH audio stuffs, some high end Westone stuffs) do not have much ear gain. IE600 has proper ear gain, and you don’t hear people talking about its soundstage. The newly launched SA6 Ultra also seems to have larger stage, and it also has a subdued ear gain.

Edit: to my ears, a big dip at around 10kHz is also important for the illusion of soundstage fading into the surrounding environment (“holographic”?)

 

[Fargeg]

I think that's a bit biased. Etymotic did a ton of frequency tests with real humans before coming up with their target curve which has very similar pinna gain to Harmon. None are perfect and I suspect ear geometries effect things somewhat but...

The problem is less the curves themselves and more the people who've turned them into thought-stopping clichés.

Sean Olive: The Harman target isn't defined past 10 kHz, so please ignore our curve past that point.

DCA: We made a headphone that follows the Harman curve, even past 10 kHz.

Listeners: This headphone sounds blunted and kind of dull up top. This is clearly proof that Harman is overrated.

Those people: The measurements show that this headphone is close to perfect. You're objectively wrong!

The measurements:

 

[iatransducer]

I think soundstage is made of a witches mixture of frequency response, phase effects and resonances, and mostly how well the track is mastered. Which goes where, I don't really know.

My take on rting's soundstage method is that their own frequency response measures what the pinna did to the frequency response, the you make your own educated guesses on what exactly happened there. It doesn't tell what specifically happened to the sound. Perhaps headphone 1 has the same response as headphone 2, but headphone 1 has the larger soundstage, so this would tell me that something other than the frequency response would also be in play.

 

[goodvibes]

The problem is less the curves themselves and more the people who've turned them into thought-stopping clichés.

Preference rules but there's so much more to it than response anyway.

 

[goodvibes]

I think soundstage is made of a witches mixture of frequency response, phase effects and resonances, and mostly how well the track is mastered. Which goes where, I don't really know.

My take on rting's soundstage method is that their own frequency response measures what the pinna did to the frequency response, the you make your own educated guesses on what exactly happened there. It doesn't tell what specifically happened to the sound. Perhaps headphone 1 has the same response as headphone 2, but headphone 1 has the larger soundstage, so this would tell me that something other than the frequency response would also be in play.

I always thought 'accurate' positioning came from even response with good phase, group delay and enough cleanliness to make space between the notes.