[BIG POPPA]

Tesla's are cool, I have a QLS6 in my system. Just try to explain that one......

 

[El_Doug]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveBSC /img/forum/go_quote.gif You stick with your $5 stock cords, I'll stick with my Shunyatas and Telsas. Deal?

Deal

 

[TheBigCW]

Deal, just don't go suggesting fancy power cords to newcomers.

 

[kite7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBigCW /img/forum/go_quote.gif Deal, just don't go suggesting fancy power cords to newcomers.

This.

Cables should be the last thing to get once you have a "perfect" system to bring out the last few percentages of performance.

 

[BIG POPPA]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kite7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif This. Cables should be the last thing to get once you have a "perfect" system to bring out the last few percentages of performance.

To a degree IMO. To me, I know the difference between AU, RH, AG, and CU, connectors and the difference between the AG,SPC, and CU cable and the different AWG to use where. Made a few cables over the years. If you are very familiar with your taste of sound and the different characteristics you can really tune up your system. to me every piece of the rig is important. I have gone through several evolutions upgrading and making stuff. If you are a set it and forget it type with your rig, that is cool too. Does not mean there is not room for improvement, just that some are not to that place to add more to their rig. We have all been there with one hobby or another.

 

[linuxworks]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you want to make yourself useful, instead of crapping this thread, and consequently trashing the forums, which you and others are doing, why don't you make a good device to measure line noise and capacitance, and do some experiments on the effects of filtering power with capacitors or power cords acting as capacitors?

I was reading up on jitter and how to detect it when I read several experts state that you don't need special test equipment to *detect* it; ie, that if its audible as a 'problem' then this problem will be seen as a delta in regular audio analysis testing (rmaa and so on).

so I submit that the tests are already there. you subtract runs and if there's a diff of *some* kind, it will show up. might be hard to explain it but at least you'd see a measurable and repeatable diff.

while I have not done this with 'power cords' I fully expect the successive runs to show identical results. I just won't waste my time chasing imaginary gains that I know are not there. if, however, someone does do a test like this and shows repeatable data, I would be interested in that.

burden of proof is on those who make wild claims. so I'd like them to spend their effort and time doing an audio analysis (their software choice) run and show that something was different, at least.

 

[Currawong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by IPodPJ /img/forum/go_quote.gif Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Should I crosslink the posts with all the insults and personal attacks you made to me in the other thread for giving my impressions?

Different issue. People can read the Reference 7 thread for themselves if they care.

Quote:

Originally Posted by linuxworks /img/forum/go_quote.gif I was reading up on jitter and how to detect it when I read several experts state that you don't need special test equipment to *detect* it; ie, that if its audible as a 'problem' then this problem will be seen as a delta in regular audio analysis testing (rmaa and so on). so I submit that the tests are already there. you subtract runs and if there's a diff of *some* kind, it will show up. might be hard to explain it but at least you'd see a measurable and repeatable diff. while I have not done this with 'power cords' I fully expect the successive runs to show identical results. I just won't waste my time chasing imaginary gains that I know are not there. if, however, someone does do a test like this and shows repeatable data, I would be interested in that. burden of proof is on those who make wild claims. so I'd like them to spend their effort and time doing an audio analysis (their software choice) run and show that something was different, at least.

This is where I disagree with you. You were reading and you expect. As well, the "burden of proof" thing is nonsense -- this is an audio discussion forum, not a scientific forum. I think, since he has interjected into the discussion, iPodPJ will serve as a good example of one extreme, and you the entirely opposite (and I'd say I'm somewhere in the middle between the two). In his case, he seems to believe in his hearing ability and would do well to learn about how one's perceptions can be deceived or altered, such as discussed in that video recently linked to where a presentation was given by forum members on one of the big audio forums. He unfortunately fell for the "big switch that changes nothing" effect thinking a setting that had no effect on the audio circuit on his amp made an audible difference.

On the other hand, my beef with the "science is right always" crowd (including members of my own family!) is that they cannot distinguish that they are following their own belief system and, without realising it, often mis-represent science and scientific method and dismiss people's experiences entirely as rubbish. Science, since it is the invention of people, is just as capable of error and deception through ignorance as anything else, and just as full of opinion and belief as religion. When it is used with the purpose of trying to improve our knowledge of life, it can have great benefits, and can be detrimental when people believe they have found the absolute truth and stop pushing further.

My point is not, ultimately about what is the most valid point of view or attitude, but of being knowledgeable about the possible explanations of things (science) with an awareness of one's own limitations (experience) and beliefs and be sensible when discussing these things.

To give an example: iPodPJ's grief with me at the moment is that I had a go at him for comparing two high-end DACs, neither of which he owned at the same time, based on impressions through $50 computer speakers. I think that he is unaware just how fragile one's audio memory is (let alone one's memory full-stop) and that he shouldn't have made such a comparison at all, even if there was another person who agreed the same way about one being an improvement over the other. At the very least he should have, with such knowledge, pointed out that his comments shouldn't be taken as gospel for these reasons.

An opposing example is much of the anti-power-cable posting in this thread. Rather than just "I read somewhere about some-or-other science so all this stuff is BS" attitude, since the forum is about improving our listening enjoyment, wouldn't it be more productive to consider that just because someone believes they heard a difference between two products, we at least consider that something be happening and find out what that something is? Just dismissing it as placebo is not what I'd describe as a good scientific attitude or a good attitude full-stop. It could well be that our hearing capabilities or sensitivity is beyond what science believes and possibly beyond what a lot of equipment can measure the difference in. Wouldn't it be more useful to actually find out what's going on, rather than just have these repeated arguments? It'd certainly be more useful to people buying gear. I don't believe that the results of tests available at the moment are sufficient.

I have to run out the door, so apologies for any gross mistakes in the above, but does what I say make sense?

 

[BIG POPPA]

 

[Valens7]

I find it sort of amusing that the OP deleted his post!

 

[El_Doug]

they were able to put a man on the moon without using 99.9% OCC silver coated in dragon tears and jelly beans... I figure any imperfections caused by using my home depot power cables must be rather small


Quote:

Originally Posted by Valens7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I find it sort of amusing that the OP deleted his post!

likewise

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcoheda /img/forum/go_quote.gif it's funny that the only people who are absolutely positive that cables cannot make a difference are always those who have the least (or no) experience with them.

Not me. I've bought several cables that made no difference whatsover. Not in listening and not in testing.

I am willing to buy more, as well. Please suggest a cord that you, personally, think makes a clear difference and I'll buy it. Preferably one you have experience with and can describe the sound.

What I find amazing is that people will spend hundreds, if not thousands, on cables, yet recoil in horror at the prospect of buying a $30 DMM to put their "beliefs" to the test. A good used 'scope is $200-$300, a mere bargain compared to some cables. Go on, believers. Try it.

I've bought test gear and cables, so why don't you all put your money where your mouth is and pick up a Fluke or a Tektronix.

Or maybe all of you are just too poor and ignorant to buy test gear. Maybe all of you are just jealous that some of us can buy test gear while you only dream about owning some. And because you're so jealous of those of us who own test gear, you make up all sorts of wild stories about cables just to make it look like we wasted our money.

 

[El_Doug]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik /img/forum/go_quote.gif Or maybe all of you are just too poor and ignorant to buy test gear. Maybe all of you are just jealous that some of us can buy test gear while you only dream about owning some. And because you're so jealous of those of us who own test gear, you make up all sorts of wild stories about cables just to make it look like we wasted our money.

 

[uraflit]

i agree. my power cord definitely makes a difference. with it, i hear sound. without it, i can't!

hi5

 

[tosehee]

I found that being flexible and open to other things are getting harder and harder as I "think" I have learned over the time...

With that said, I have done the similar text (not to extreme as Uncle Erik), but two different power cord didn't seem to reveal any difference that my 'poor' hearing capability can detect..

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Sifting through this thread and trying to weed out the rubbish;

1 - even if there are physically measurable differences between power cords, how do they relate to alleged differences in sound quality? Buying power cords appears to be very hit and miss as to whether there will be a difference to the sound.

2 - the argument that why does only the last few feet of cable make a difference when you have miles of mains before that does not work for me. All that is of concern to any electrical equipment is the state of the power as it enters. Hence all the PCs I have ever seen have transformers and sometimes ferrite cores with their power cables. That is all that is needed. In the same way all a power cord neeeds to do is have an affect on the mains directly into the equipment.

3 - the burden of proof argument is no help on forum debates. This is not a court. We would all get so much more out of these debates if everyone brought evidence by experience and science.

4 - those who just use the power cord provided, have you ever tried a swap with a really cheap £1 shop kettle lead to see if there is a difference? My experience is that manufacturers do provide good quality power cords in the first place. Rega have a reputation for spending time and money on a good power cord to supply as standard. So my experince was an after market cord made no difference there. That helps to explain one reason why some say there is a difference and others do not.

5 - I am not inclined to believe night and day claims for a difference between any cable.

6 - I will buy an aftermarket power cord, but never anything over about £50. Sometimes the anti-cable side appear to be arguing against stupid money cords only. I am anti-cable when it comes to stupid money as well, particularly recommending such to those new to hifi.

7 - The quality of the mains and RFI/EMI varies from house to house and system to system, so that helps to explain why some say there is a difference and others do not.

8 - There will never be a consensus here, but the only people who are 'wasting their lives' are those who read and post on such threads with nothing to contribute except derision and sarcastic remarks.