Power Cables, any way to test?
Apr 12, 2016 at 3:46 PM Post #76 of 130
  http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html
 
Im not tricked by my brains whenever I would test the cables. Many, if not all, audiophiles believe in sighted testing. Do so if you want but dont think those tests trump real statistical tests.

 
Thanks, that was an interesting read.  I'd argue that the test wasn't even close to statisticly significant, even if you discount the whopping 75 seconds between samples (!!!), but that would be pointless given your beliefs.  
 
But still, I appreciate your bringing something to the table besides yelling "NU UHH!!!"  
tongue.gif
 
 
Apr 12, 2016 at 4:28 PM Post #77 of 130
   
Thanks, that was an interesting read.  I'd argue that the test wasn't even close to statisticly significant, even if you discount the whopping 75 seconds between samples (!!!), but that would be pointless given your beliefs.  
 
But still, I appreciate your bringing something to the table besides yelling "NU UHH!!!"  
tongue.gif
 

I only highlight those two words.......
 
Apr 12, 2016 at 5:25 PM Post #78 of 130
 
   
Thanks, that was an interesting read.  I'd argue that the test wasn't even close to statisticly significant, even if you discount the whopping 75 seconds between samples (!!!), but that would be pointless given your beliefs.  
 
But still, I appreciate your bringing something to the table besides yelling "NU UHH!!!"  
tongue.gif
 

I only highlight those two words.......


Haven't you heard? Science is a belief system, but I digress. 
 
Apr 12, 2016 at 5:36 PM Post #79 of 130
  I only highlight those two words.......

 
You're being pedantic... right after I thanked you for offering something interesting to the discussion.  How silly of me.
 
 
Haven't you heard? Science is a belief system, but I digress. 

 
Well since he didn't prove anything, I'm still calling it his beliefs, or opinions or hypothesis if you prefer.   The phrasing isn't really what's important here, is it?
 
Apr 12, 2016 at 5:38 PM Post #80 of 130
 
Haven't you heard? Science is a belief system, but I digress. 

Yeah, like Creationists who discount Evolution. I'm outta here. No point arguing with the closed-minded who have no grasp of power supplies and internally-generated noise from within components.
 
Apr 12, 2016 at 5:53 PM Post #81 of 130
 
  I only highlight those two words.......

 
You're being pedantic... right after I thanked you for offering something interesting to the discussion.  How silly of me.
 
 
Haven't you heard? Science is a belief system, but I digress. 

 
Well since he didn't prove anything, I'm still calling it his beliefs, or opinions or hypothesis if you prefer.   The phrasing isn't really what's important here, is it?


I think the point is that it's hard or impossible to proof a negative. No one proof that god doesn't exists (used as an example only, let's not discuss), but many belief God exists. Just because people believe it doesn't make it true. Just because God's existence cannot be disproved, doesn't mean God exists.
 
With cables, the scientists think is that if there is no measurable difference and no scientific way to distinguish any unmeasurable differences (e.g., blind testing), then there is no difference until a difference is proved. The reverse that there is a difference until you can prove there isn't one is the same faulty logic as because you cannot disprove God, God exists.  
 
Apr 12, 2016 at 6:29 PM Post #82 of 130
 
 
Calling that insulting? Wow. Trying to sell people cables that "offer much better SQ, increased detail"etc etc, that is *insulting*!

 
So you've listened for yourself and not heard a difference?  This is the Sound Science forum; can you provide ANY sort of backup for your claims that power cables can and will never affect sound quality?

depends. if I start turning my power cable into a massive low pass filter, is it still something we should call a cable?
it's not difficult to make a cable that will change the sound, we simply have to make it so that it's not the cable it's supposed to be. as in, a wire with minimal impact on the signal passing through it. that's what a good cable is supposed to do right? if to you guys a good power cable is a good filter, we're simply not talking about the same thing.
and why should it be the job of the power cable to filter out noise? doesn't it seem strange even as a concept? the amp manufacturer ran out of space inside the box so he couldn't fit the oh so needed filter? am I supposed to go with that kind of story? the simple concept that a power cable should do something special is strange to me.
 
 
 
 
 you have yourself heard such differences from power cables, let's pretend they were real(something you haven't showed to us so far), you don't know the electrical characteristics of the 2 cables, only that they don't sound the same at some place on some device. so you can't even rule out that one cable could be bad. or that the expensive audio cable doesn't use some special trick to force a sound difference. you also don't have an objective evidence that the expensive one offers the most accurate music.
so we don't know clearly what it does, why, or how. only that with 2 cables you got 2 sounds. if that is enough to convince you of the necessity to care about power cables, I'd say that you didn't need much convincing. ^_^
but most of all, we do not make rules out of limited anecdotes. we make rules from things we understand, or things that are so repeatable that we can predict the behavior even if we don't know why. finding one or 2 cables that make significant differences to the music, it's neither.
 
what is striking when I look at the people who talk about expensive cables who justify the expense, is how few objectivists are in that group.
wink_face.gif

 
 
 
 
 
  shielding a power cable looks like a bad idea to me.

 
I wonder why.
A wire works like a antenna.
We do have a lot of EMI/RFI going on (WiFi, cell phone).
Shielding is simply putting the wire in a cage of Faraday.
Won't do harm imho

oh I doubt that shielding will have much impact on a short power cable anyway.
but in theory wouldn't the shielding add some capacitance? shouldn't that be seen as a bad thing?
and what do you figure the amplitude of the noise from wifi, cellphone etc hitting a power cable will be compared to the power supply itself? I'm guessing not much. and what about the power line and the wire running in the wall? what difference will the last few inches do? and won't most high frequencies be filtered or at least attenuated when the 220 or 110 AC will be transformed into whatever the device needs to use?
maybe instead of a bad idea, I should have said a waste of effort and good money ^_^.
 
Apr 13, 2016 at 4:33 AM Post #83 of 130
"So you've listened for yourself and not heard a difference?  This is the Sound Science forum; can you provide ANY sort of backup for your claims that power cables can and will never affect sound quality?"
 
Can you quantitatively prove that cables improve sound? What if your reference to sound is wrong? In blind test, I will bet you cannot tell the difference.
 
Apr 13, 2016 at 8:14 AM Post #84 of 130
  My understanding of a power cord's effect on sound is that certain devices are more sensitive to "dirty" power than others.

 
All power from an outlet is horrendously dirty and, it's of completely the wrong specifications!
 
1. An international device must accept and deal with either 50Hz or 60Hz current and 110 or 240 volts. In practice, power delivery is extremely erratic, in good areas a 240V supply will vary between 238V and 242V and in not so good areas the swing could be 10V either side of the target 240V. And, I'm talking about areas with high quality power infrastructure here, not somewhere in the middle of Africa!
 
2. Many/Most of the components in DACs, Amplifiers, etc., work in just the milliAmp and milliVolt range (up to just a few amps and volts) and require very precise and stable power, None of this is anything like the power which comes from the average outlet. The power supplies in these units need to take pretty much anything between about 100V and 250V and massively filter and clean it and convert it into something completely different.
 
Let's say we could make a theoretically perfect power cord for $10,000. What would we get out of it? We'd get an exact reproduction of the horrendously "dirty" and incorrect power coming out of your wall socket! How would this cable vary from an average (say monoprice) power cord? By a few thousandths of a volt, maybe even as much as a tenth of a volt. How much audible difference does a variation of even a tenth of a volt make to the power supply of a unit which is (should be) designed to eradicate variations up to 200 (or so) times greater? Errr ....
 
G
 
Apr 13, 2016 at 9:55 AM Post #85 of 130
  "So you've listened for yourself and not heard a difference?  This is the Sound Science forum; can you provide ANY sort of backup for your claims that power cables can and will never affect sound quality?"
 
Can you quantitatively prove that cables improve sound? What if your reference to sound is wrong? In blind test, I will bet you cannot tell the difference.


we could record the output with both cables for a song, and then use audio diffmaker to see which is closest to the original(if anything is indeed different).
that would give an incentive at least of the magnitudes involved and if it's worth looking further into it. but that would at best show one result in one house with one sound system. to prove anything in a global way like saying that cable X improves audio, there would be a need for a proper protocols. I suggest you don't hold your breath.
 
Apr 13, 2016 at 12:47 PM Post #86 of 130
Some time ago a friend of mine asked me to have a look at his hi-fi system. He believed he had some sort of power supply problem and had bought a couple of aftermarket power cables but they hadn't led to any improvement. Investigating further I could see that the wall outlet was old and discoloured. We removed and dismantled it and found the contact strips inside to be burnt and pitted with no spring pressure left. Replacing this with a good quality new outlet solved his problems.
 
The point is that it is connectors and not cables that make the difference. Every connector introduces resistance and has the propensity to produce noise. Connectors can also wear and age. 
 
Renewing a tired old wall outlet is likely to have a far greater effect on power quality than any change in the tiny part of the system that is the cable between the outlet and the component.
 
Many IEC connectors are pretty poor, having a tiny contact area with the pins of the receptacle. Simply removing and replacing the power cord 'wipes' the contact area clean of any oxidisation and results in a better connection. I'm convinced this is a factor in people hearing an improvement when they change cables. Personally, I disconnect and reconnect all power and signal cables on my equipment every few months and have heard improvements through doing so. If I was replacing the cables with different ones rather than just reconnecting the old ones, I might believe that the new cables were responsible for the improvement.
 
I make my own power cables using MK Toughplug mains plugs (UK) and Martin Kaiser IEC connectors. These are not expensive but have a better contact arrangement that grips the receptacle pins along their length rather than a single point. I use standard 2.5mm (~14 gauge) cable for most components and 4mm (~11 gauge) for power amplifiers. 
 
There are no physical properties that I know of that could improve upon the power transfer capability of this arrangement, and while I do it for my own satisfaction and convenience I can't say that I believe it offers any real improvement over good quality 'generic' cables.
 
Apr 13, 2016 at 2:30 PM Post #87 of 130
Thank Peridot. Good discussion.
 
Any using a power conditioner? Seems like a power conditioner would "clean" up any spikes, pings, drops in the voltage. Maybe one like this?
http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-LC1200-Conditioner-Outlet/dp/B0000512LA
 
1800 W version
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000514G8
 
Apr 14, 2016 at 7:17 AM Post #88 of 130
Real audiophiles LOVE to say that they have better hearing than other people. Fact is many don't, most even have worse hearing because of their hearing damage caused by listening to loud music (to hear more dynamics...).

 
-A couple of years ago a Norwegian insurance company had a survey taken. 88% of respondents (if memory serves, but somewhere in that range) were convinced they were better than average drivers.
 
I suspect the results to be similar in this case.
 
Apr 14, 2016 at 7:56 AM Post #89 of 130
  Thank Peridot. Good discussion.
 
Any using a power conditioner? Seems like a power conditioner would "clean" up any spikes, pings, drops in the voltage. Maybe one like this?
http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-LC1200-Conditioner-Outlet/dp/B0000512LA
 
1800 W version
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000514G8

 
The term power conditioner can cover a wide range from simple surge arrestors to sophisticated pure sinewave uninterruptable power supplies (UPS).
 
They can be very beneficial, or even essential, in remote rural areas subject to brown-out and other power supply disruption.
 
In urban areas with stable power supplies I'm not convinced that they offer any real benefit. They can filter interference in the line current (which a properly designed component power circuit will do anyway), but can also introduce additional impedance that limits transient performance.
 
I have one of the Belkin PureAV units. It looks nice in the rack and is a great multi-way socket outlet (after I fixed its incorrect wiring), but I can't say that I've noticed any sonic improvement as a result of using it.
 
Apr 15, 2016 at 8:44 AM Post #90 of 130
Originally Posted by Allanmarcus /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Seems like a power conditioner would "clean" up any spikes, pings, drops in the voltage.

 
Yes it would but the question you're really asking is: Why would you need two power conditioners in series?
 
Your audio equipment already contains a highly accurate power conditioner, what benefit/difference would there be in adding an additional one? The answer is "none whatsoever" unless, the power is so poor/abnormal in a particular location that it falls outside the relatively wide input window the power conditioner inside your audio equipment is designed to accept.
 
G
 

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