[parbaked]

  Here's my contribution to the thread

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

 
 

This shot gave me platter envy!!!!!

 

[Hijodelbrx]

  Looks the business.  Cartridge?

 
Like the man said, Ortofon Kontrapunkt B

 

[bbophead]

  Here's my contribution to the thread
 

Wowzers and a 12 incher to boot!!!  Even your bedroom system kicks some serious butt.  I'm jelly.
 
Congrats on some really fine stuff.

 

[Eee Pee]

 

 

[Silent One]

 

 

WOW WOW WOW ! ! ! 

 

[Silverprout]

  WOW WOW WOW ! ! ! 

ahahaaaaaahaaa !
 
 

 

[Errymoose]

 
More psychiatry...

 

[Silent One]

 

[Redcarmoose]

  First, I never actually owned one. But I did get to set up quite a few. Like on a production line scale - at Empire in Switzerland, trying to bring it to a at least decent level.
 
The best I heard any Revox sing was with an Ortofon VMS 20E MKII - which is one of the very good/best high compliance carts that actually can track at or below 1.2 grams - and this cart thrieves in really low mass arms, Revox included. Of normal pivoted arms, Infinity Black widow and SME III are the ones that I remember playing well with this cart - way above what one might expect from a MM.
 
Second, which should be BEFORE FIRST - I never, NEVER trash anyobody personally for anything - at least not intentionally. Revox TT is potentially very good - but it is poorly executed, simply because its designers seem never to ask the fundamental question what a turntable actually is. They  are FAR from being alone in this - you can add Thorens, Technics (among the most prolifirate culprits), etc, etc to this list - but Revox unfortunately does occupy the most flawed position on that list. Awareness that speed stability and freedom from rumble are only the solid base upon which to build good sonics of a turntable is relatively new one; it has not been applied to ANY commercially available record cutting lathe ( ! - where it matters even more; I have only rather recently seen a modification of the Technics SP-02 motor/platter that is most obviously trying to adress this crucial matter  ) - and TTs that do not ring as hell and can be lifted by a single person are rather recent thing - starting say from the original Oracle in 1979 or so. Revox TT is about the same age - yet there is not a single measure
to keep it mechanically quiet. Gently tap the aluminium cover for the tonearm  while music is playing at reasonable level, preferably with headphones. You are not likely to find that sound pleasing - and then we can proceed to platter, subchassis, etc, etc. All these gremlins add distract from what Revox design should have been capable of extracting from the record groove; all of these are least bothersome with a high compliance cartridge that does not put so much energy back into the arm and record/platter - here, a Revox is acceptable.
With any cartridge with remotely stiffer suspension, it wil really suffer. I have expressed the preference for high compliance cartridges many times; yet, outside vintage well preserved samples, there is no currently produced carts that fall in this category .
 
Revox did try to adress the issue of decoupling the TT from structural feedback with a subchassis - which also makes for controls to be conviniently located on the main chassis and thus being next to inaudible when touched.  But there is a fly in this ointment; direct drive motors react violently to any movement around the axis of the main bearing - they will try to correct the speed to the reference point, which is the subchassis, or precisely said stator of the DD motor bolted to that subchassis. If the reference point is not stable enough, the superb speed of DD will suffer. This is why direct drive tables are for the most part built as mass coupled tables where
decoupling/isolation is provided by the support and not the TT itself.
 
After all this said and done, I have seen Revox and Empire modified Revox tables replaced by basic Rega models; they are not technological marvels, compoared to Revox can be regarded as downgrade by ? generations of engineering - yet they do basics rather well. I have expressed my crticism of Rega many many times - but it is all what it takes to best a Revox. Or Technics - and here I do not mean only the SL 1200 . There was one Technics design that adressed these matters TOO well to remain in production more than a year or two; it was embarassing the TOTL from Technics to the point they simply stopped the production; people did get a shock to hear a deck several times less costly from the same manufacturers that sonically demolished their flag$hip. Ebay is a VERY good indicator of designs proven over time; it is extremely unlikely to be possible to get the SL-M1 (either version, with S- shaped arm or straight P-Mount type) for peanuts; it is highly sought after by the connoisseurs and valued accordingly
 
Ultimately, it all boils down to money. A properly executed Revox could have been a formidable machine - but
it would most probably be too expensive to be competitive. Its basic idea, that of a user ( family, CHILDREN ) friendly TT is sound - if only it was better executed.
 
The ultimate "insult" Revox related happened late 70s/early 80s at our electronic show of the day. After seeing a Revox ( it does LOOK impeccably built ), I ( along with almost everbody else ) could not have taken the "ugly duckling" Tesla NC 470 from then Czechoslovakia seriously. The thing was later also marketed as NAD 5120 ( and Lenco in better looking wooden plinth ). It took me "only" 3 more decades before I realized which one is ultimately capable of squeezing more from the vinyl record ... 

 
 
The amazing thing about Hi/Fi and turntables are that we hear stuff a different way during the span of our lifetime. The equipment is really secondary even though the whole jest of this thread is that it is not. All of us have great memories of being 18 and hearing great stereo. At that time of our lives every good stereo sounded like 100K.
 
 
 
I was lucky enough to have an amazing system built up at age 18. Four 15 inchers and 1.5 foot horn tweeters. Music was new and a thrill. It does not matter what kind of system you have because the perception of sound and music is only between the ears. Being young everything has a primal thrill as it is all the first time. There is the emotion, there is the rush. We end up chasing the same feeling 40 years later and only get a taste if we are lucky.
 
When I see a kids system with a $100 table, I know what he is feeling when he turns it all on and I respect that.
 
 
 
The best system I have heard in later life has been a VPI Hotrod with a 23K Clear Audio cart pushing threw an Einstein Phono pre and into a great RSA pre into tubes. Cost? I don't know, maybe 1/3 of the price it took me to build a house. In the end it does not matter.

 

[analogsurviver]

 

Back in the days of my CD retail, I always tried to find the sweet spot of any customer... - then hitting with "more of the same".
 
The amount of LPs pictured above is - insane. Still, as many times as there are LPs in those pictures, more interesting than a psychiatrist 

.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Caution, heavy bragging and fond memories of youth to follow.
 
 
 
 
 
 
My Altec system I had at 18 could be heard from a city block away when turned up loud. The louder it got the cleaner it sounded with zero distortion. The only problem was that squads of police came by and not just to enjoy the music with me.

 

[analogsurviver]

   
 
The amazing thing about Hi/Fi and turntables are that we hear stuff a different way during the span of our lifetime. The equipment is really secondary even though the whole jest of this thread is that it is not. All of us have great memories of being 18 and hearing great stereo. At that time of our lives every good stereo sounded like 100K.
 
 
 
I was lucky enough to have an amazing system built up at age 18. Four 15 inchers and 1.5 foot horn tweeters. Music was new and a thrill. It does not matter what kind of system you have because the perception of sound and music is only between the ears. Being young everything has a primal thrill as it is all the first time. There is the emotion, there is the rush. We end up chasing the same feeling 40 years later and only get a taste if we are lucky.
 
When I see a kids system with a $100 table, I know what he is feeling when he turns it all on and I respect that.
 
 
 
The best system I have heard in later life has been a VPI Hotrod with a 23K Clear Audio cart pushing threw an Einstein Phono pre and into a great RSA pre into tubes. Cost? I don't know, maybe 1/3 of the price it took me to build a house. In the end it does not matter.

I agree with you - GREAT post.
 
The trouble is, I am not after primal thrill anymore - hardly possible at my age. Yesterday, for example, I was recording one of the best amateur choirs on the planet -
and DSD128 master sounds soooooooo superiour to anything off vinyl http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvjKQzkRfTo that is is ludicrous. THAT is what it takes on the verge of primal thrill  for me these days - witnessing the choir I became almost a part of from day one, coming together to to the level as envisioned by the conductor - even if and when the conductor has to exert Draconian measures to get the already some of the best singers up to the level "singing in his head"  .
Why "only" verge ? Because I saw it coming - I knew it is around ? corner(s), but CLOSE. It is this pushing the envelope that brings progress/breaktrough - and no one doing it, in any field, can be described as "normal", one has to be a "nutcase" if there is the desire to suceed in the end.
 
Analog vinyl still has ways to go; how much of the improvement(s) possible are needed, desired or required depends on the end user, each individual.  In home theather, there is THX standard - and every device has to reach certain levels of perormance minimally required in order to be able to carry that THX approved badge.
THX is far from perfect/best/whatever - but it does set the minimum performance that does allow for the home theather to work in one's home as intended by the director of the movie. Compare that to a turntable, pick up arm and cartridge - one can take a Yugo chassis, mate with some turbo large wheels off a mining truck and power it with a surplus jet off a Starfighter - and people would be ooching and aaching at seeing pics of such an analog rig. A lowly LOOKING but well chosen and adjusted set of components would barely get a mention - if lucky.
 
Now, how many TTs actually achive frequency response 20-20k + - 1 dB, channel separation equal to or better than 35 dB across the SAME 20-20k, how many real world rigs have wow and flutter below 0.1% PLAYING REAL RECORDS ? And you do not want to throw the distortion levels to that mix ...
 
Price in itself proved to be no guarantee to the excellence of quality. Since you mention Clearaudio; back in the day, I ran across an Insider ( THE most costly cart back in the day, 10 K in German Marks or so ) - that was so defective from the new box I would NEVER allow any of my LPs to be played with it. How many people have the possibility to prove that supposed-to-be-the-best is actually a dud - a VERY high priced dud to boot - making the mfr to grungigly replace it with a normal functioning one ?

 

[Redcarmoose]

one can take a Yugo chassis, mate with some turbo large wheels off a mining truck and power it with a surplus jet off a Starfighter - and people would be ooching and aaching at seeing pics of such an analog rig.
 
"With an unknown vibration inducing rear drive-shaft of anodized aluminum of course."

 

[Silent One]

  Caution, heavy bragging and fond memories of youth to follow.
 
 
 
 
 
 
My Altec system I had at 18 could be heard from a city block away when turned up loud. The louder it got the cleaner it sounded with zero distortion. The only problem was that squads of police came by and not just to enjoy the music with me.

 

[analogsurviver]

  one can take a Yugo chassis, mate with some turbo large wheels off a mining truck and power it with a surplus jet off a Starfighter - and people would be ooching and aaching at seeing pics of such an analog rig.
 
"With an unknown vibration inducing rear drive-shaft of anodized aluminum of course."

Sure - something like that, only in turntable context. 
 
Seriously, what I meant was that in TTs, the freedom of the audiophile in choosing what to mate as a record player ( cart + arm + turntable = record player, NOT meant as a bellittle-ing of turntable, as generally in English language  - Turntable > Record Player; record player is more than just a turntable, the turntable in itself can not reproduce sound ) is WAY too great. And no one can deny that looks sell - compatibility be damned. Add to that "forced marriages" due to distributors/retailers - although glaring examples like a low compliance light weight moving coil cartridge in a Black Widow tonearm are (hopefully) thing of the past, how many distributors have you seen exhibiting an arm with the cartridge by their competition - regardless of being known that combo of "our" arm and "their" cartridge producing best results ? They usually let it limp best it can with what they are distributing - it is a fact of real life.
 
In car terms - if the roads ( theorethically ) supported safe 200 mph traffic, with "normal" high end TTs getting on average a hair below or above 100 mph at a punishing price is not exactly doing great. And no, you are not allowed to use an engine from Mercedes on the chassis of Audi in the "skin" of a BMW - that contraption, although composed with fine igridients, would have to be atested to be allowed to run in normal traffic; cost to do the necessary conversions etc in order for the car as a whole to work properly would be immense, even more so to get it atested. The quality of the resulting ride would most likely be totally disproportionate to the end cost.
 
In TTs, one is  allowed to do similar. Ultimate price in worse examples usually paid by the RECORDS themselves - definitely not a good proposition.