Planars: Ok, I finally get it.
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Dawnrazor

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I never really noticed a difference between my planars (blon b20) and other dynamic headphones I tried. They just seemed like any other headphone.
Yes, I can see that. That is like the sendy Aiva. That IME doesn't showcase what planar does well which is size, width and bass slam. I bought the Aiva and returned it because the M1060 with mods sounded way better. My complaint was that the AIva was super narrow in the soundstage and the images were fleasized. Seriously, like the vocalist was a flea. Now you might not think the vocals and instruments are flea sized on the Blon, but compared to other planars, image size is small and definately not what you can get with other planars. IMHO it was the grill that killed everything. I might get the m570 just to remove the grill and see.

FWIW I got hassled for not liking the flavor of the month and could never see what all the fuss was about. I imagine if you are used to dynamics and maybe not heard some planars that sound like planars, the Aiva would be great. Not for me. I did a review here if you want to see or just check out the impression thread to see the dialogue.

Grab an M1060 if you can or some other planar that does the tech justice. Monoprice will let you return it if you don't like it. But even stock you can get an inkling on what the planar sound is. And if you take off the grills and remove the foam its even better....
 
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Yes, I can see that. That is like the sendy Aiva. That IME doesn't showcase what planar does well which is size, width and bass slam. I bought the Aiva and returned it because the M1060 with mods sounded way better. My complaint was that the AIva was super narrow in the soundstage and the images were fleasized. Seriously, like the vocalist was a flea. Now you might not think the vocals and instruments are flea sized on the Blon, but compared to other planars, image size is small and definately not what you can get with other planars. IMHO it was the grill that killed everything. I might get the m570 just to remove the grill and see.

FWIW I got hassled for not liking the flavor of the month and could never see what all the fuss was about. I imagine if you are used to dynamics and maybe not heard some planars that sound like planars, the Aiva would be great. Not for me. I did a review here if you want to see or just check out the impression thread to see the dialogue.

Grab an M1060 if you can or some other planar that does the tech justice. Monoprice will let you return it if you don't like it. But even stock you can get an inkling on what the planar sound is. And if you take off the grills and remove the foam its even better....
ALready moved on from them to campfire cascades haha, maybe in the future when I get more money ill try another planar
 
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I think I red that Oratory's target curve is mostly based on Harman curve. Which I think is currently based partially on speakers in a room and the test about how average people prefer their headphones. Generally people preferred more bass, and more treble on expense of midrange. Ad that consumer preference to need for bass if you want to simulate speakers, you get one bass heavy target curve. Again, correct if I'm wrong but it is my understanding that Rtings uses similar curve. It leads to ridiculous claims, such as Audeze's LCD headphones needing a bass boost and so on. I'm not saying they're wrong though. It is a matter of taste. Personally I prefer boosted bass, especially in low subbass region. Because of my speaker background I'm always after that visceral impact and some added subbass makes headphones just a tad closer to speakers(IMO).

Overall I however find Oratorys eq's most suitable for low volume listening. It's at low listening levels when some bass boost and extra treble comes in handy. I think they should somehow add in Fletcher-Munson curve because as it is I think Oratory/Rtings/Harman is just a V-style/Low volume listening kind of thing.
Thanks for the clarification.

Plugging in some arbitrary room effect plus adding average listeners for bass - are both arbitrary and ridiculous. I have a vast amount of time with speakers (some exceedingly good) in rooms for 48 years. There is no one size fits all room or speakers and more to the point speakers IN rooms setting or formula. I've instrumented dozens of set-ups and *never* have I seen any of the bass curves they've offered up in the 5 cans I used Oratory to set.

If Oratory wants people to run through a set of tests to ID what the issues might be and then recommend a setting - great - I see no such function. As far what the average listener wants? What do I care what they like? It's not a popularity contest complete with bass heads and fans of artificial bass, IT'S AN ACCURACY CONTEST.

I think over ~150 Hz Oratory really seems to be quite on - besides the fact that they do NOTHING for cans that ring but don't show any obvious signs where frequency measures are not notably off. Ringing is like 3rd order harmonics - very irritating.

I use 4 of the 6 settings in my parametric to basically use the 4 most dramatic Oratory settings, one to deal with the worst ringing (my planars all ring - (and existing CSD charts have them identified quite well)), and one to do the bass shelf which I have set from +1.8 to 2.8 db (because they are open backs, several w/o the screen).

It's great to find sources of correct objective measurement in this subjective hobby, but when you overstep your well founded objectivity to promote a one sized fits all room and the arbitrary bass leanings of people that - let's face it - don't listen to much classical.. Go ahead and set your EQ of your favorite set of headphones to Oratory 1990 - and listen to your best and cleanest recordings and tell me the bass doesn't sound like a wallowing whale.

As for preferences I find the common taste is for a bright treble. So why doesn't Oratory throw in a few more db over 4kHz for that?

Most very serious audiophiles with speaker systems and room issues try to mitigate them by use of things like Sonex foam, ASC traps, scatter rugs as opposed to wall to wall, or have rooms constructed with non parallel surfaces, concrete floor, equipment closets (it kills me how people display their equipment proudly between their speakers on a shelf) not caring or not knowing the damage that does to the back stage, even more bizarre is having a turntable in use in the same situation).

So why on earth do I want to add the frequency distortion of a room that is say 20' x 10' x 10' with tower speakers with considerable bass (with a Q over 1.0) on the floor (w/o spikes) and tucked into the corner? I'm sure that is not Oratory's model room, but, its just as arbitrary and just as pernicious to bass "flatness" under 240 Hz as whatever they have (or given the lack of ripples in the curves supplied it's likely that there is NO room, just something imagined to be correct, then polluted with a ridiculous popularity contest.

It's simple to avoid, somewhere in the mid 150 to 100 Hz range their suggested EQ curve takes a large jump, try that, then try flat, then tune to your cans. So indeed what they have (outside of ringing issues) over 150 Hz is quite useful, use that, ignore the wrong turns, find CSD graphs elsewhere (esp for planars) and try cutting the worst area of ringing. -4-5 db is the range I find that works in a very narrow band.
 
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Nice to see how the discussion has evolved. Anyway to update: the Audeze LC2C arrived about a week and a half ago and it's very clear they're not for me. I do like the low end and overall warmth & girth (which is the signature I was after), but there's a hole in the upper mids that I just can't deal with. It makes them sound muffled and hollow to me. And I can't really tell if I like the end. I notice some energy & life up top, especially the "S" sounds region, but it seems kinda artificial and disjointed and distracting, possibly because of it's contrast to the lack of upper mids. It's not a smooth sound imo.

I feel like a philistine but I have to report that I'm still really into the M1060C, and much prefer them to the LCD2C. My reaction may have something to do with the fact that I listen at rather low volumes, which I do to keep my tinnitus in check. In fact I'm sure the tinnitus itself has a big impact on my perceptions, though I don't know exactly what that might be. Oh well, whatever.

But I'm still really into the idea of planars and determined to find a mid fi set that I really like. To that end, i have the HFM Ananda arriving Wednesday. I realize these may not be the best choice for someone wanting warmth and smoothness, but the fact that they got so much praise at the $1k price point and they're now going for $700, I just have to try them. Plus I'm pretty sure I've never heard a really good soundstage, as none of my longer term faves are known for this (HD 600, Clear, 99 Classics, V-Moda XS). In fact the M1060C might be the biggest stage set I currently have?

Lastly, I'm happy to see others loving the Loki eq too! Though i only use mine sparingly, I really love what it does when I need it, which is almost exclusively to add few dB more bass to my 600 and remove a few dB of bass from my 99C. Although just this week I've been toying with shaving a little off the 2kHz band on the M1060C, but I'm not sure I like this yet.
 
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Nice to see how the discussion has evolved. Anyway to update: the Audeze LC2C arrived about a week and a half ago and it's very clear they're not for me. I do like the low end and overall warmth & girth (which is the signature I was after), but there's a hole in the upper mids that I just can't deal with. It makes them sound muffled and hollow to me. And I can't really tell if I like the end. I notice some energy & life up top, especially the "S" sounds region, but it seems kinda artificial and disjointed and distracting, possibly because of it's contrast to the lack of upper mids. It's not a smooth sound imo.

I feel like a philistine but I have to report that I'm still really into the M1060C, and much prefer them to the LCD2C. My reaction may have something to do with the fact that I listen at rather low volumes, which I do to keep my tinnitus in check. In fact I'm sure the tinnitus itself has a big impact on my perceptions, though I don't know exactly what that might be. Oh well, whatever.

But I'm still really into the idea of planars and determined to find a mid fi set that I really like. To that end, i have the HFM Ananda arriving Wednesday. I realize these may not be the best choice for someone wanting warmth and smoothness, but the fact that they got so much praise at the $1k price point and they're now going for $700, I just have to try them. Plus I'm pretty sure I've never heard a really good soundstage, as none of my longer term faves are known for this (HD 600, Clear, 99 Classics, V-Moda XS). In fact the M1060C might be the biggest stage set I currently have?

Lastly, I'm happy to see others loving the Loki eq too! Though i only use mine sparingly, I really love what it does when I need it, which is almost exclusively to add few dB more bass to my 600 and remove a few dB of bass from my 99C. Although just this week I've been toying with shaving a little off the 2kHz band on the M1060C, but I'm not sure I like this yet.
I never heard an Audeze but from the reviews It does seem like you describe the house sound. Its one of the reasons I am staying with my modded m1060 and M1060c and will probably go Hifiman if I go at all. The price to value ratio for the M1060 line is off the hook.

If you are into a simple mod and want to get a big soundstage out of the M1060c do try the soundstage mod in my sig. It make a big difference if you use the right material.
 
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Nice to see how the discussion has evolved. Anyway to update: the Audeze LC2C arrived about a week and a half ago and it's very clear they're not for me. I do like the low end and overall warmth & girth (which is the signature I was after), but there's a hole in the upper mids that I just can't deal with. It makes them sound muffled and hollow to me. And I can't really tell if I like the end. I notice some energy & life up top, especially the "S" sounds region, but it seems kinda artificial and disjointed and distracting, possibly because of it's contrast to the lack of upper mids. It's not a smooth sound imo.

I feel like a philistine but I have to report that I'm still really into the M1060C, and much prefer them to the LCD2C. My taste may have something to do with the fact that I listen at rather low volumes, which I do to keep my tinnitus in check. In fact I'm sure the tinnitus itself has a big impact on my perceptions. Oh well, whatever.

But I'm still really into the idea of planars and determined to find a mid fi set that I really like. To that end, i have the HFM Ananda arriving Wednesday. I realize these may not be the best choice for someone wanting warmth and smoothness, but the fact that they got so much praise at the $1k price point and they're now going for $700, I just have to try them. Plus I'm pretty sure I've never heard a really good soundstage, as none of my longer term faves are known for this (HD 600, Clear, 99 Classics, V-Moda XS). In fact the M1060C might be the biggest stage set I currently have?

Lastly, I'm happy to see others loving the Loki eq too! Though i only use mine sparingly, I really love what it does when I need it, which is almost exclusively to add few dB more bass to my 600 and a few dB less bass with my 99C. Although just this week I've been toying with shaving a little off the 2kHz band on the M1060C, but I'm not sure I like this yet.
I have pretty much the same impressions, and I generally find Audeze tuning not agreeable to my ears, and it's just hard to understand why anybody would, but they got their tastes. LCDi4 at whopping $2.4k was huge disappointment, and what a wonky tuning it was. I just couldn't believe they'd sell at such price for such mediocre tuning. There's a big large hole, gap, or whatever that is the cause of wonky response. General characteristics of the result is warm and thick mids with a dive in the crucial detail region of upper-mids.

What I found really apalling is the EQ Audeze would provide even with driver variance. Not only that, EQ didn't really fix the issues. And their points were since their drivers have low distortions, they should EQ well. That didn't turn out to be the case in practicality. Their cipher cable and their Reveal plugins are placebo than anything else. They really do not correct the response. I just wish Audeze made better drivers.

I'm ok with their headphone frame build quality however, and they are the better builder with Hifiman build be low, but I do find Hifiman's frequency response more correct in tonality. Just because Audeze can thump doesn't make the tonality has accuracy or gets even close. Bass isn't everything to sound, there are many important parts in the spectrum, especially the upper-mids, in which they especially fail at.

Audeze = wonky hollow sounding from thick mids and dipped upper-mids at $$$$$$

When something has hollow tonality, and it's that obvious, there is seriously something wrong.

This is a rule every company should abide by: At bare minimum a good balanced tonality is required, and if looking to be reputed as Hifi, have both good balanced tonality and top technicalities. If you are going to have people spend their hard earned money, provide some decent value in performance at least.
 
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I never heard an Audeze but from the reviews It does seem like you describe the house sound. Its one of the reasons I am staying with my modded m1060 and M1060c and will probably go Hifiman if I go at all. The price to value ratio for the M1060 line is off the hook.

If you are into a simple mod and want to get a big soundstage out of the M1060c do try the soundstage mod in my sig. It make a big difference if you use the right material.
Um, I'm not seeing your sig. In fact I'm now realizing that I haven't seen anyone's sig in a very long time. Just took a quick look in my account settings but I couldn't find a way to turn sigs on/off, or anything like that. Little help?

Anyway, if your mod for the 1060C is to go open then I can't do it. I use mine mostly in situations when I need a closed back to keep from bothering people. But I am still curious to read about your mods.
 
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Um, I'm not seeing your sig. In fact I'm now realizing that I haven't seen anyone's sig in a very long time. Just took a quick look in my account settings but I couldn't find a way to turn sigs on/off, or anything like that. Little help?
Should be in your Preferences, under Content Options.
 
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I have pretty much the same impressions, and I generally find Audeze tuning not agreeable to my ears, and it's just hard to understand why anybody would, but they got their tastes. LCDi4 at whopping $2.4k was huge disappointment, and what a wonky tuning it was. I just couldn't believe they'd sell at such price for such mediocre tuning. There's a big large hole, gap, or whatever that is the cause of wonky response. General characteristics of the result is warm and thick mids with a dive in the crucial detail region of upper-mids.

What I found really apalling is the EQ Audeze would provide even with driver variance. Not only that, EQ didn't really fix the issues. And their points were since their drivers have low distortions, they should EQ well. That didn't turn out to be the case in practicality. Their cipher cable and their Reveal plugins are placebo than anything else. They really do not correct the response. I just wish Audeze made better drivers.

I'm ok with their headphone frame build quality however, and they are the better builder with Hifiman build be low, but I do find Hifiman's frequency response more correct in tonality. Just because Audeze can thump doesn't make the tonality has accuracy or gets even close. Bass isn't everything to sound, there are many important parts in the spectrum, especially the upper-mids, in which they especially fail at.

Audeze = wonky hollow sounding from thick mids and dipped upper-mids at $$$$$$

When something has hollow tonality, and it's that obvious, there is seriously something wrong.

This is a rule every company should abide by: At bare minimum a good balanced tonality is required, and if looking to be reputed as Hifi, have both good balanced tonality and top technicalities. If you are going to have people spend their hard earned money, provide some decent value in performance at least.
Yeah I mean I definitely get why people like a nice warm, smooth signature at times. I was looking for that myself, but the LCD2 just take it too far for me. Plenty of folks seem to love them though. So there you go.

I can't argue with the LCD2C build quality though. Jeezuz, they feel really great. I'll go as far as to say they're the best feeling headphones I've ever held in my hands. Just so solid and premium feeling! Comfy too. Makes me even more sad that I'm not into the sound. Oh well.
 
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Um, I'm not seeing your sig. In fact I'm now realizing that I haven't seen anyone's sig in a very long time. Just took a quick look in my account settings but I couldn't find a way to turn sigs on/off, or anything like that. Little help?

Anyway, if your mod for the 1060C is to go open then I can't do it. I use mine mostly in situations when I need a closed back to keep from bothering people. But I am still curious to read about your mods.
Most of them are making things open but one can be done if you keep it closed.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/tra...mod-for-5-plus-shipping.929222/#post-15545640
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/m1060c-open-soundstage-mod.918483/
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/m1060-mod.898962/page-3#post-14827529

And these mods are horrible because they look bad but as an audiophile I don't care especially since I can't see them with the cans on my head. Really surprised how important looks seem to be on this forum. Like the amazing looking grills people make for their M1060 mods. Its all beautiful but man they kill the sound...
 
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