[Duncan]

FWIW, the LCD2.2 that I had for about a year did little to entice me to listen to music, so you can throw all the measurements you like into the equation, but if you cannot engage, it's worthless... I also had the HD800 for a similar length of time, and I found them fatiguing...

Every region, and every pair of ears within said region hears things differently.

 

[up late]

i'm not a fan of the lcd-2 or hd800 either but there are lots of folks who are, and both cans do measure well. i was very impressed by the lcd-4 tho, which also measures well. there's no requirement for folks to engage with cans that measure well or poorly, but that doesn't make objective measurements worthless. they don't tell the whole sonic story however, and should be regarded as indicative rather than absolute. they're just measurements - nothing to get defensive or upset about.

 

[thomson]

Well, I'm an acoustics engineer and definitely do not reject headphone measurements although I agree that they may unfortunately influence how you'll perceive a phone response (many people listen to headphones prior to measuring them for this reason and use data to explain what they heard).

In pioneer's case, it started from their brochure, with this really weird response curve (5dB peak at 4k and 10dB one at 20k, bass roll off from 150Hz): http://pioneer-headphones.com/english/se-master1/technology/

I suppose the main issue here is that marketing dept were perhaps out of the depth when they were handed a curve from the tech department but it is an almost laughable curve unless context was explained (open baffle / driver only near field measurement etc...).

On the impressions side, if you say you can't stand the 009 for 10min and put them in the same bag as stock hd800 while at the same time loving the pioneer's sig, I'd say something went very wrong somewhere (either in what your reference sound is or the system / music being listened to).

As a matter of fact, the pioneer went from sounding dog awful to nice depending on the music I'd use and if I tried to acclimate to the sound (akin to an ultrasone can). So, it's one of those cans that one absolutely must listen to before purchase as it's going to be pretty hit and miss imo.

We see in this thread that the can is very very polarizing with totally different impressions depending on the people, we see much less of this with more neutral phones (the utopia comes to mind). These phones may not be what you want but there's no question they are more truthfull to the source material being played (which is my goal in this hobby, i'd settle with much cheaper gear otherwise).

Cheers,
Arnaud

 
Arnaud, I think I may have become a bit overly excited (probably thinking about my analogies so the statement that I cannot stand the HD800/SR-009 more than a few minutes was rather exaggerated, I'm afraid. If it had been so, I don't think that I actually would have purchased the HD800 a second time.
 
I don't think the HD800 and SR-009 sound the same, but they are both headphones that technically amaze me and for this reason I think that I should like them, but for some reason. they eventually fail to entice me and more often than not, my mind starts to wander away from the music and I start thinking about other things instead.
 
I also agree that the sound of the SEM1 heavily depends on the type of music I listen to, much more so than any other headphone that I've owned so even to myself, they are polarizing.
I would therefore never recommend the SEM1 as the one and only headphone and I think that most of us that owns them, use them as a complement to other headphones in our collection just because they don't sound like the other headphones and when they sound good, they sound much better than the measurements seem to indicate.

 

[thomson]

i don't think anyone is saying that. i wish that folks would stop conflating objective headphone measurements with subjective perception and personal preference.

and i wouldn't mind a dollar for every time i've seen someone equating price with sonic performance and using car analogies to prove their point.

I'm not arguing that the measurements are not objective. I've studied Tyll's measurement setup in details and it's impressive.
 
However, his setup is not a 3D replicate of the way my head, ears, ear canals are shaped so even if his measurement are objective, they will never show exactly how a headphone sounds to my ears.
Thus, it could be that a frequency peak that sounds annoying to some people do not sound as annoying to other people since the geometry is different and the sound waves therefore takes different paths before they reach the ear drum and that will definitely change the perceived sound.
It could also be that I have a hearing defect so that a certain unlinearity that clearly can be seen in the measurements doesn't bother me at all.
 
However, I guess this getting off topic so I'm just going to leave it with that even if the measurements are objective, the result depend on the test setup (position of the microphones etc) and it's therefore not so strange if someone's subjective perception, in a completely different environment, differs from what the measurements indicate.

 

[thomson]

   
Yes but are you paying 2500usd for that bad sounding concert or that well mixed and mastered CD? No, you're probably paying less than 20 dollars. That's my point.
 
Also, congratulations for disliking two of the brightest headphones ever!
I don't like them too, but hey, modded 007 or even an Audeze LCD-2, have very good measurements and sound spectacular.
In fact, 007 with port mod has even more detail than 009 but much smoother, linear and with better bass, I know we all hear different but even Bob Katz, listening to his own master in both headphones said: "You like 009? You must be deaf"
 
Do all analogies you want, but 2500 for that Pioneer thing is OVERPRICED, wire your ears with 5n pure silver if you want but I will not change my opinion.

At least on this we are in total agreement! That's also why I'm selling my SEM1 since even if I actually like them, I cannot afford to keep them

 

[thomson]

  This thread gets better and better

, like a civil war almost =)

I immediately regretted my post directly after posting it but not anymore since at least it stirred up some activity in this thread that sometimes is very quiet.
Quite enjoyable reading

 

[ToroFiestaSol]

Sorry if I was a bit rude, Head-fing at 4am with a few beers is never a good idea.
On my Trump voice, I'll put a wall on my cellphone after 1am 

 
However, in a softer and gentle tone, my opinion doesn't change.

 

[thomson]

  Sorry if I was a bit rude, Head-fing at 4am with a few beers is never a good idea.
On my Trump voice, I'll put a wall on my cellphone after 1am 

 
However, in a softer and gentle tone, my opinion doesn't change.

I wrote my post after a dinner that included more than one glass of wine so I could probably have benefited from a bit of the Trump wall myself

Also in a softer and more gentle tone, I still think it's possible for someone to enjoy a headphone even if it objectively measures bad (within reasonable limits of course) simply because how much a person enjoys something is probably as close to as subjective as anything can get.

 

[ToroFiestaSol]

 
I wrote my post after a dinner that included more than one glass of wine so I could probably have benefited from a bit of the Trump wall myself

Also in a softer and more gentle tone, I still think it's possible for someone to enjoy a headphone even if it objectively measures bad (within reasonable limits of course) simply because how much a person enjoys something is probably as close to as subjective as anything can get.

 
We should partying together one day 

 

 

[thomson]

   
We should partying together one day 

 

I'm quite sure I would enjoy that

 

[up late]

I'm not arguing that the measurements are not objective. I've studied Tyll's measurement setup in details and it's impressive.

However, his setup is not a 3D replicate of the way my head, ears, ear canals are shaped so even if his measurement are objective, they will never show exactly how a headphone sounds to my ears.
Thus, it could be that a frequency peak that sounds annoying to some people do not sound as annoying to other people since the geometry is different and the sound waves therefore takes different paths before they reach the ear drum and that will definitely change the perceived sound.
It could also be that I have a hearing defect so that a certain unlinearity that clearly can be seen in the measurements doesn't bother me at all.

However, I guess this getting off topic so I'm just going to leave it with that even if the measurements are objective, the result depend on the test setup (position of the microphones etc) and it's therefore not so strange if someone's subjective perception, in a completely different environment, differs from what the measurements indicate.

i didn't say that you were. however, you appeared to be taking exception to something that hadn't been said.

tyll is measuring headphone performance - not testing hearing acuity. he uses a standardised dummy head to take headphone measurements, and so do headphone manufacturers. obviously it's not possible for him or sennheiser for example, to customise their measurement rigs to measure your head and every other person's who dons a pair of cans, or to account for the countless variations in hearing perception between individuals. and as they are taken on different measurement rigs using different methodologies, there will be some varation in the results, but they usually look similar despite this. they should be regarded as indicative rather than absolute as i've said.

my point tho, is that there is a clear distinction between objective headphone measurements and subjective perception that is often conflated in this hobby. as i've also said, there is no requirement for anyone to like a can that measures well or to not enjoy a can that measures poorly. that is a matter of perception and taste, which is entirely subjective. a headphone graph can show you a can's fr for example, but it's not charting personal enjoyment. however, there are some head-fiers who are very skilled at interpreting the data and use it to vet cans.

i usually avoid analogies, but to dismiss objective measurements because they don't align with what you hear and like or don't like, is not dissimilar to disregarding a temperature gauge because the temperature feels different to you than what is indicated, or disagreeing with a speedometer because it indicates that you are travelling faster than you thought you were, or relying on your visual estimate of the length of a wall rather than a tape measure etc.

and yes, we are o/t and these discussions should be taken to the sound science forum.

 

[thomson]

i didn't say that you were. however, you appeared to be taking exception to something that hadn't been said.

tyll is measuring headphone performance - not testing hearing acuity. he uses a standardised dummy head to take headphone measurements, and so do headphone manufacturers. obviously it's not possible for him or sennheiser for example, to customise their measurement rigs to measure your head and every other person's who dons a pair of cans, or to account for the countless variations in hearing perception between individuals. and as they are taken on different measurement rigs using different methodologies, there will be some varation in the results, but they usually look similar despite this. they should be regarded as indicative rather than absolute as i've said.

my point tho, is that there is a clear distinction between objective headphone measurements and subjective perception that is often conflated in this hobby. as i've also said, there is no requirement for anyone to like a can that measures well or to not enjoy a can that measures poorly. that is a matter of perception and taste, which is entirely subjective. a headphone graph can show you a can's fr for example, but it's not charting personal enjoyment. however, there are some head-fiers who are very skilled at interpreting the data and use it to vet cans.

i usually avoid analogies, but to dismiss objective measurements because they don't align with what you hear and like or don't like, is not dissimilar to disregarding a temperature gauge because the temperature feels different to you than what is indicated, or disagreeing with a speedometer because it indicates that you are travelling faster than you thought you were, or relying on your visual estimate of the length of a wall rather than a tape measure etc.

and yes, we are o/t and these discussions should be taken to the sound science forum.

I have no arguments against this.Actually, you phrased your comments so well that I almost whished I had written them myself (well, if I have to be nitpicking, perhaps apart from the lack of capitalization

 

[up late]

lol! blame e e cummings

 

[starblue]

Assuming everybody who is reading this thread has some degree of [atleast initial] interest in this headphone, I have a friendly advice - ignore the mathematics and Physics, i.e. forget about the charts chatter, just go and try out this headphone, preferably with your own source. Trust your ears. For me, when a headphone "calls" you on your listening seat everyday and forces you to go through tracks and digital albums without the urge to skip, it has made its impact statement already. This headphone is musical and addictive to my ears and its really as simple as that. Not to all ears may be and I am OK with it. But I urge you to give it a try,
 
PS: before the dark side decides to comes after me - (i) I do have a masters degree in Material science Physics with my major with NASA (spececraft sh!t with lot of graphs) - I can read charts but when it comes to music equipment I choose not to do so (ii) have done a course in acoustic engineering - just trying to say I can read charts if I want to , and (iiI) checkout my headphone inventory, I do have "some"listening"experience. I don't care what graphs say, I trust the ears and melon on my shoulders
 
PS: I am torn between Pioneer SE M1 and Sony MDR Z1R. After few weeks of listening I am inclined to day that they are both awesome phones. Sony initially  came out as bass heavy but after burn-in it has changed character. I am not letting these two compete with each other. They are both musical and both will stay.
 
Happy listening!

 

[mrtim6]

I don't mind if people think the headphones are over priced (being hand made in Japan by an artisan can't be cheap)

I don't mind if people don't like the headphones that's fine too.

What is objectionable is when people try and tell others what they "should" like. - Oh so you now are the omnipotent all seeing wizard of that which is great sound?

As said before we all perceive music differently- I would guess there are so many variables it would be impossible to have a level playing field. Why should anyone in this thread be upset that many of use like these headphones? It makes no sense at all.

How many of you out there on this forum check for the dynamic range in the music they listen to and compare different recordings of the same album? This I think is worth paying close attention to.

And the comment I think made by ToroFiestaSol - Pioneer jumped on the bandwagon of established companies. Do your homework! Pioneer have been in the high end game for a very long time. Their Exclusive P3 turntable first released in 1979 won a slew of awards back then and still sell for 4-6000 USD today. Not to mention various other exotic high end Hi-Fi gear.


The war that is being fought all around is over the domination of the content in our minds.