[shrimants]

I'm hoping you are willing to help me set up my room, as I've gotten the sound card, the AVR 235, and a bunch of various surround system components. I am going to post up pictures of my room, along with some sort of reference, after i've cleaned up and organized it a bit so that you are able to get some sort of idea on what I have to work with. Changing the setup of the tables is not really an option, though I can post up measurements of that stuff too. The book case is bolted to the wall, as are and the black board and cork board are also hung up. The picture frames were also painstakingly measured and put up, and that is why I didnt want to move around the orientation of the room. Moving it around makes it seem crowded. You'll see what I mean once I get pictures put up. For now, I'll just list off the various components.

AVR 235 reciever

Audioengine A5 bookshelf speakers

Pioneer HPM-60 "bookshelfs"

Harman Kardon Speakers (2 satellites and a center, CEN-TS7 and SAT-TS7)

Harman Kardon TS7 Subwoofer

http://www.specsbox.com/332/harman-kardon-hkts-7-specs.html

Dayton Audio Titanic Mk. III 10 inch Subwoofer (specs and such can be found here http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=300-760)

Asus DSX 7.1 DSX sound card

AMB Gamma 2 Full++ DAC (for stereo listening. I figured if I am doing dolby headphone stuff, I can have the sound card apply DSP effects and send via S/PDIF to AVR, then AVR sends to DAC, which sends to headphones. Either that or I can skip the DAC altogether and simply listen out of the AVR, but I dont know how good the AVR is for headphone amplification. I have a Fiio E11 headphone amp that I use out of the Gamma 2 otherwise)

Room cleanup and pictures incoming.

Room dimensions are 10.5 feet x 10.5 feet x14 foot ceiling, i believe. Only dimension i'm unsure of is the ceiling. I cant make any additional holes in the walls, but I can use sticky tape and velcro and things like that.

EDIT: Also, I know that this system and room isnt ideal, but i'd like to request that you refrain from telling me to simply buy product XYZ. I'm barely managing to scrape even this together with my meager earnings, and while I appreciate product recommendations, this is all I have to work with. I know it sucks, I know a lot of this isnt the ideal setup and that my room and setup is producing a bunch of undesirable effects, but this is basically all I can really do.

Also, in regards to the big old pioneers. I cant stand them upright because im afraid they'll break the crappy ikea shelf. I tried it and the shelf starts flexing. Also, the shelf isnt thick enough to support toeing in the pioneer anyways.

 

[obobskivich]

If I remember right (but I may be thinking of the AVR265), the HK has analog preouts?

If yes, I'd say feed those into the AudioEngines, ditch the Pioneers entirely, set-up the H/K setup as the surrounds (go up to 7.1, why not, the 235 will do it), turn it's center vertical (horiz = bad, but it's an MTM, so turning it upright will help to fix a lot of the reasons why horizontal MTMs suck eggs), and then as far as the subs just hook the Dayton into the 235's sub out. You could hook both in, but my suspicion is that you'll get a nice mid-bass hump and no benefit in terms of extension, it'll also be harder to dial in. But it might be worth playing around with (I don't like hooking up multiple subs that aren't the same kind of sub, is basically where I'm going with this - if you had two of either, I'd say get a Y and go for it!).

Then if you're up for modification of the room, treat your first reflection points (this doesn't have to mean expensive commercial products) and make sure everything roughly follows a coherent 5.1 or 7.1 channel map (THX, Dolby, DTS, they're all fairly similar (avoid the THX ASA map you can find on the THX website though, that requires a THX EX processor to make sense of)).

 

[shrimants]

The A5's arent MTM, the pioneers, are. The pioneers are sideways. the a5's are on top of the pioneers. the A5's arent really at face height. If i ditch the pioneers, i cant do 7.1, i can get at most 5.1, or 5.2. The pioneers were a gift. I dont really NEED them, but i rather like them. Honestly, I like the way my room sounds a LOT more with the A5+HPM combo playing vs the A5 alone vs the pioneer alone, so if thats your recommendation and i had to go by ear alone, i'd rather just keep everything the way it is and do 5.1. I dont have the full TS7 speaker setup, I only have 2 satellites and the center and subwoofer. You'll see a bit more clearly once I show you the room layout.. I just got done cleaning up, i'll take some pictures in a couple seconds. Thanks for the quick response. Stay tuned, give me like 10 minutes.

 

[shrimants]

http://imgur.com/a/Wgd7C#0

Images of my room. Essentially everything electronic can be rearranged. The only reason the speaker/computer stuff isnt on the black desk is because its annoying as heck to have the blinds running into junk whenever I open them, and its even more annoying to have "fake light" on during the time of the day when sunlight can come into my room. The combination of natural and "unnatural" light really throws me off, for whatever reason.

 

[obobskivich]

Okay, I thought you had the complete H/K 5.1 set, so that's a knock to what I said.

I agree on the lighting - one or the other, but not both.

Alright, onto the rest; the reason I'm saying don't run both is because they're likely causing destructive interference, and that's why you have bad imaging. They're just positioned wrong.

We also don't like MTMs oriented horizontally:
http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/vertical-vs-horizontal-speaker-designs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_cancellation

MTM only has an advantage when it's oriented vertically (because the phase cancellation exists on the vertical plane which we generally don't care about because it's not like we're doing jumping jacks while listening to music) - point-source or otherwise non-MTM will eliminate this issue (e.g. the A5s won't have that problem, they will still have variable off-axis response though). It's safe to say that I'm not an MTM fan.

The center is also in the wrong place on the desk. It should be equidistant from L and R. Ideally you're re-creating one of these:
http://www.thx.com/consumer/home-entertainment/home-theater/surround-sound-speaker-set-up/ (*not* ASA, ignore the very first example) - remember that toe-in and so on has to do with the polar radiation of the speakers more than it does any absolute.

Looking at an uncovered image of the HPMs, they aren't MTMs, so I'd be okay considering them as horizontals, but I'd really want to hear it both ways and decide based on that. Try it on the floor or something. Speaker stands are relatively cheap (like $30-$40 for a pair) if you determine that vertical is better (it probably is, but I'm just guessing).


So based on the images, do the bass crawl for whichever sub you want to keep (you can try both, it'll just take a lot longer to set them up), and get it placed right. And then move onto the rest of the speakers. The biggest issues I'm seeing:

1. The left surround is not present or placed, and it doesn't look like it CAN be placed due to how the room is shaped.
2. The dual speakers up-front.
3. The center in general.
4. The TV getting between the right surround and you.

So what I'd consider:

1. Can either of the surrounds go on the ceiling and be aimed down?
2. Do something with the dual speaker fiesta.
3. Ditch the center, or set it up vertical and hang it between the two Pioneers.
4. Move the TV back or the speaker forwards slightly.

In terms of the dual fiesta sounding better - are you sure it's not just because it's LOUDER (generally louder will sound better to us humanoids)?

Anyways, as far as hookup goes, assuming the AVR235 doesn't fuss with you, the A5s can run on the preamp taps while the Pioneers go on the amp taps, and the HK speakers on the amp taps, run the sub on the sub out, set the crossover at something like 80-100 hz (it'll kneecap the surrounds but there's not much you can do), set-up time alignment and leveling as best as you can.

 

[shrimants]

Without completely cluttering the room and making it unfunctional as a bedroom I dont have much of a choice about putting the HPM's on the floor. Regarding the speaker placement of the TS7;s, thats just where they happened to be, not the actual placement of them. I'll pull the one forwards and push the TV backwards. The TV isnt permanent anyways, thats my gf's TV and she's staying for the summer and moving back to college.

Regarding center channel placement. I am trying on the floor and pointing upwards, which is nowhere near ideal, but i cant drill holes in my parents' house. Especially not for such a crappy temporary speaker. I have to wait for the finances to recharge and for time to pass until I move into a proper apartment with a proper dedicated mancave, but until such time, this will have to suffice. As long as I have 2.0 music and headphone performance, decent 5.1 performance should cut it just fine for me. The AVR is a plus in that it can be upgraded in the future, especially because it has external inputs for when we upgrade to rainbow-ray 22.7 4d smell-o-vision surround or w/e.

I guess i'll leave the reciever right where it is. I was wondering if I should move the reciever onto the computer desk and move the audioengines into the bookshelf area, but I was afraid it would do some weird echo stuff so I'm leaving those where they are. The TV and other HK is being left where it is. I know the center channel isnt ideal, but neither is the room. If nothing else, i'll try to create a little shelf doohicky for the monitor. It shouldnt be too hard, and I have scrap wood laying around. I just need to find some time and some nails.

Also, i'm going to experiment with both subwoofers. My room has horrendous dead spots due to its tiny size and im hoping that both subwoofers will do something to eliminate standing waves and smooth out bass response. If it sounds bad or imbalanced though (extremely highly likely) i'll just utilize the subwoofer elsewhere.

 

[obobskivich]

Without completely cluttering the room and making it unfunctional as a bedroom I dont have much of a choice about putting the HPM's on the floor. Regarding the speaker placement of the TS7;s, thats just where they happened to be, not the actual placement of them. I'll pull the one forwards and push the TV backwards. The TV isnt permanent anyways, thats my gf's TV and she's staying for the summer and moving back to college.
Regarding center channel placement. I am trying on the floor and pointing upwards, which is nowhere near ideal, but i cant drill holes in my parents' house. Especially not for such a crappy temporary speaker. I have to wait for the finances to recharge and for time to pass until I move into a proper apartment with a proper dedicated mancave, but until such time, this will have to suffice. As long as I have 2.0 music and headphone performance, decent 5.1 performance should cut it just fine for me. The AVR is a plus in that it can be upgraded in the future, especially because it has external inputs for when we upgrade to rainbow-ray 22.7 4d smell-o-vision surround or w/e.
I guess i'll leave the reciever right where it is. I was wondering if I should move the reciever onto the computer desk and move the audioengines into the bookshelf area, but I was afraid it would do some weird echo stuff so I'm leaving those where they are. The TV and other HK is being left where it is. I know the center channel isnt ideal, but neither is the room. If nothing else, i'll try to create a little shelf doohicky for the monitor. It shouldnt be too hard, and I have scrap wood laying around. I just need to find some time and some nails.
Also, i'm going to experiment with both subwoofers. My room has horrendous dead spots due to its tiny size and im hoping that both subwoofers will do something to eliminate standing waves and smooth out bass response. If it sounds bad or imbalanced though (extremely highly likely) i'll just utilize the subwoofer elsewhere.

Wanted to qualify: I didn't mean LEAVE the speakers on the floor, I meant try them horizontal and then vertical, and use the floor as a shelf for that, since it can take the weight. IF they sound better vertical, get proper hardware.

Onto the center: I'd dump the center if you can't get it placed right. It's better to have less channels done correctly than more channels done poorly.

I'd agree on leaving the A5s out of that alcove - you'll ramp the bass WAY up (in a bad way).

Regarding the subs - you cannot drive into a null, it's just physics. You have to break it by treating or damping - that's modification. I'd just do the bass crawl for sub A, and place it, and leave B alone. The problem with using both is they don't have identical response, and because the H/K is a wimp, you'll have a mid-bass hump where the H/K can respond, and less overall extension - it'll sound boomy (like putting the A5s inside that alcove). A single sub like the Dayton should be enough to pressurize that room, and if you do the bass crawl right, it'll be placed such that it sounds good at prime.

 

[shrimants]

I have everything set up and cable managed. All I need to do now is produce a test tone out of each speaker. Cant figure out how to do that for the life of me. I've been able to get every speaker to say "front left" and "front right" easy enough but I cant seem to figure out how to set the reciever to "dont apply an fancy logic 7 or DSP crap to the input stream" mode, and I cant seem to set the sound card to "s/pdif output without screwing with the stream" mode either.

 

[NamelessPFG]

Try opening the Windows sound control panel, selecting the sound card (but NOT its "SPDIF Out"), and clicking the "Configure" button to test your speakers. That should be pretty straightforward from there.
 
I can't help you too much with proper S/PDIF settings since I don't have any Xonar cards whose control panels I can experiment with.

 

[shrimants]

I cant really use this to test because S/PDIF is the only connectivity option I have to test. I'm reading up on my reciever settings and such and there are a few weird issues that I'm having. http://www.harmankardon.com/resources/Brands/harmankardon/Products/ProductRelatedDocuments/en-US/OwnersManual/AVR%20235%20OM.pdf Page 27 of this link details what modes my reciever is capable of. I have a connection via S/PDIF optical cable. In xonar panel, I have it set to 6 audio channels, sample rate PCM 48 khz, Analog Out 5.1 speakers (this is ignored, obviously), S/PDIF Output Enabled in PCM format.

I tried enabling that s/pdif output in DTS Interactive format instead, but that doesnt do anything. The goal is to make my reciever say "DTS 5.1", indicating that there is a 5.1 stream incoming, or at least that there is an incoming DTS stream. Instead, it doesnt even indicate that there is any sort of an audio stream apart from PCM stereo 48 khz.

I think that the Xonar control panel doesnt have a DTS stream that it can deliver. Furthermore, I think that PCM 48khz is way too high bandwidth to be delivered as anything apart from stereo, and thats why the reciever wont recognize anything apart from stereo anyways.

What is confusing the crap out of me is why the reciever wont even recognize that my subwoofer is connected. The subwoofer is turned on and activated, and it should be playing by all rights, but it is just sitting there inactive no matter what DSP mode I pick. I have no idea why. I'm thinking I should just route Front Left/Right to subwoofer input left/right and then go Subwoofer output left/right to preamp speaker left/right. That way, subwoofer is just daisy chained in the middle of the preamp chain. Thats an ideal solution, but its better than nothing.

I'm going to throw in some DTS and Dolby Digital DVDs and see if I cant get those working properly. Maybe VLC will have some luck with them. If not, powerDVD might do better.

 

[obobskivich]

I cant really use this to test because S/PDIF is the only connectivity option I have to test. I'm reading up on my reciever settings and such and there are a few weird issues that I'm having. http://www.harmankardon.com/resources/Brands/harmankardon/Products/ProductRelatedDocuments/en-US/OwnersManual/AVR%20235%20OM.pdf Page 27 of this link details what modes my reciever is capable of. I have a connection via S/PDIF optical cable. In xonar panel, I have it set to 6 audio channels, sample rate PCM 48 khz, Analog Out 5.1 speakers (this is ignored, obviously), S/PDIF Output Enabled in PCM format.
I tried enabling that s/pdif output in DTS Interactive format instead, but that doesnt do anything. The goal is to make my reciever say "DTS 5.1", indicating that there is a 5.1 stream incoming, or at least that there is an incoming DTS stream. Instead, it doesnt even indicate that there is any sort of an audio stream apart from PCM stereo 48 khz.
I think that the Xonar control panel doesnt have a DTS stream that it can deliver. Furthermore, I think that PCM 48khz is way too high bandwidth to be delivered as anything apart from stereo, and thats why the reciever wont recognize anything apart from stereo anyways.
What is confusing the crap out of me is why the reciever wont even recognize that my subwoofer is connected. The subwoofer is turned on and activated, and it should be playing by all rights, but it is just sitting there inactive no matter what DSP mode I pick. I have no idea why. I'm thinking I should just route Front Left/Right to subwoofer input left/right and then go Subwoofer output left/right to preamp speaker left/right. That way, subwoofer is just daisy chained in the middle of the preamp chain. Thats an ideal solution, but its better than nothing.
I'm going to throw in some DTS and Dolby Digital DVDs and see if I cant get those working properly. Maybe VLC will have some luck with them. If not, powerDVD might do better.

Not to repeat myself for the fourth time o), but:

1. You cannot do multi-channel PCM via S/PDIF. It does not have enough bandwidth. The settings you have provided cannot accomplish what you want.
2. You will have to set the software output to 5.1 and then upmix stereo content to 5.1 to use DTS Connect or Dolby Digital Live - you do not want to do this for music, you only need to do this for videogames.
3. With movies, simply bitstream AC-3 or DTS from the disc through the player software.
4. You need to go into the receiver's set-up menu and configure the channel map - it will not auto-detect the subwoofer just because you plugged in the RCA lead.

 

[shrimants]

I get the multichannel PCM thing. The reason I got confused is because we kept talking about "lpcm" and "multi channel pcm" but then in my control panel, it let me set channels to 6, output to S/pdif, and mode to DTS or PCM. So I was like oh, What, maybe this will work. Now that this is clear though, it makes way more sense why my junk wasnt working.

Furthermore, I'm 99% sure that the control panel test tones will only go out over analog, essentially. I was expecting to be able to set the s/pdif output to DTS Interactive mode and then test all of my speakers. That makes sense, right? To include that sort of functionality in a sound card? I guess not to asus, lol.

Anyways, I put a DVD in and tried testing through VLC. That didnt work. Then I facepalmed, set VLC to s/pdif passthrough mode instead of 2.0 output mode, and tested again. That works flawlessly. So DVDs will work perfectly for me now, assuming the software I use supports S/PDIF passthrough.

Now, I need to test a game with DTS Connect, I need to figure out how to do Dolby Headphone and pass it over S/PDIF, and I need to figure out a quick and easy way to send 2.0 48khz PCM from winamp straight to the reciever, regardless of whatever the sound card settings are. I THINK if I use the wasapi plugin/setup guides, this should happen. Even if it doesnt, I'm 90% sure that the sound card does it anyways.

Also, I need to set all my speaker sizes to "small" and turn off the subwoofer/LFE. The actual preamp output for subwoofer is broken. I wiggled it and the sound cut in and out, and then i opened it and confirmed it. The contact is broken. Its something i can see but not something i can fix without a soldering iron that dispenses solder like a syringe. I might later try to get that and the optical output fixed, but its not a huge deal. I am currently going from AVR to Pioneers, and also going from AVR Pre -> Subwoofer L/R input -> Subwoofer L/R output -> A5's. The L/R in/out is not a crossovered type in/out. it is a direct passthrough type input/output and shouldnt interfere with the signal path in an way. That way, I can also quickly and easily switch the reciever to "surround off" mode, which puts it into 2.0 mode, which means I can listen to stereo sources without the center/rears butting in unnecessarily.

Finally, I have to re-volume match the A5's, the HPM's, and the subwoofer, then I have to screw around with the crossover manually between the A5/HPM and the Subwoofer, and then finally I can use the auto volume matching functionality to bring the front L/R combo and the center/rear up to the same volume based on my usual listening position.

Tricky, but i'll make it work.

So yeah, to re-iterate, only thing I have no idea about how to get working right now is dolby headphone and pass it over s/pdif (btw, reciever also supports dolby headphone modes, though not sure if it will let me send dolby headphone encoded signals over coax). Also, no idea if DTS Connect actually works yet. Also no idea if winamp+wasapi will automagically do 24 bit 48 khz PCM. Also, need to figure out a local electronics repair shop. Shouldnt take more than 30-45 minutes TOPS to repair the RCA jack, i just dont have the tools necessary.

 

[PurpleAngel]

Really dumb question time.
Do you have the optical connected to your motherboard or to the Xonar DSX card?
(hopefully you connected the optical directly to the Xonar DSX)
Did you disable your on-board sound (in the bios).

 

[obobskivich]

I get the multichannel PCM thing. The reason I got confused is because we kept talking about "lpcm" and "multi channel pcm" but then in my control panel, it let me set channels to 6, output to S/pdif, and mode to DTS or PCM. So I was like oh, What, maybe this will work. Now that this is clear though, it makes way more sense why my junk wasnt working.

Oh, sorry. LPCM and MPCM are inter-changeable incontext.

Furthermore, I'm 99% sure that the control panel test tones will only go out over analog, essentially. I was expecting to be able to set the s/pdif output to DTS Interactive mode and then test all of my speakers. That makes sense, right? To include that sort of functionality in a sound card? I guess not to asus, lol.

I don't know on the Xonar, but on the Creative cards (and this is Microsoft's fault, not the cardmakers - again, they did a lot of screwy stuff with the Vista/7 audio stack) you have to enable "play analog mix to digital output" and then set the device to the analog out, enable the encoder in the card's drivers if needed. Basically bypass the Windows control panel in the process.

Anyways, I put a DVD in and tried testing through VLC. That didnt work. Then I facepalmed, set VLC to s/pdif passthrough mode instead of 2.0 output mode, and tested again. That works flawlessly. So DVDs will work perfectly for me now, assuming the software I use supports S/PDIF passthrough.

Good.

Now, I need to test a game with DTS Connect, I need to figure out how to do Dolby Headphone and pass it over S/PDIF, and I need to figure out a quick and easy way to send 2.0 48khz PCM from winamp straight to the reciever, regardless of whatever the sound card settings are. I THINK if I use the wasapi plugin/setup guides, this should happen. Even if it doesnt, I'm 90% sure that the sound card does it anyways.

You'd want to set the game to 5.1 or surround sound, set the card to DDL/DTSC (it's all preference, both are HBR lossy), you may be forced to use DDL -or- DH (does the receiver support DH? If so, feed it DDL and then plug into it). The stereo PCM out is easy to do, I would set it to 44.1khz for music though.

Also, I need to set all my speaker sizes to "small" and turn off the subwoofer/LFE. The actual preamp output for subwoofer is broken. I wiggled it and the sound cut in and out, and then i opened it and confirmed it.

You'd actually need to set at least two of them to Large (no AVR or Dolby decoder will let you do all-to-small + no LFE), and then feed an external xover for the sub, or just do what you've been doing and use its LPF + FR into the mains.

The contact is broken. Its something i can see but not something i can fix without a soldering iron that dispenses solder like a syringe.

Gotta love those...:rolleyes:

I might later try to get that and the optical output fixed, but its not a huge deal. I am currently going from AVR to Pioneers, and also going from AVR Pre -> Subwoofer L/R input -> Subwoofer L/R output -> A5's. The L/R in/out is not a crossovered type in/out. it is a direct passthrough type input/output and shouldnt interfere with the signal path in an way.

You say that like it's a good thing.

That way, I can also quickly and easily switch the reciever to "surround off" mode, which puts it into 2.0 mode, which means I can listen to stereo sources without the center/rears butting in unnecessarily.

Yes. Just remember, it will probably downmix Dolby/DTS to stereo in this scenario, and that it's a waste of DSP cycles and huge fidelity downgrade to do this for music. Turn it to stereo at the PC and send PCM out.

Finally, I have to re-volume match the A5's, the HPM's, and the subwoofer, then I have to screw around with the crossover manually between the A5/HPM and the Subwoofer, and then finally I can use the auto volume matching functionality to bring the front L/R combo and the center/rear up to the same volume based on my usual listening position.
Tricky, but i'll make it work.

Got an SPL meter?

So yeah, to re-iterate, only thing I have no idea about how to get working right now is dolby headphone and pass it over s/pdif (btw, reciever also supports dolby headphone modes, though not sure if it will let me send dolby headphone encoded signals over coax). Also, no idea if DTS Connect actually works yet. Also no idea if winamp+wasapi will automagically do 24 bit 48 khz PCM. Also, need to figure out a local electronics repair shop. Shouldnt take more than 30-45 minutes TOPS to repair the RCA jack, i just dont have the tools necessary.

There is no "Dolby Headphone encoded signal" - it's a downmix/output processing thing. On the Creative cards, you just set the card to "Headphone" and you get CMSS Headphone, I assume Asus does the same thing into Dolby Headphone. On the receiver, you'd take a 5.1 input and plug in headphones, and it should set it up for you. You don't want both at once (don't feed headphone -> headphone).

Why do you want 24/48? Is this how your music is encoded? I'd also add that there's really not a big fidelity hit (as in I'll wager you can't actually tell them apart) between default 16/48 from Windows and using SRC and whatever "native" mode you pick, so unless the bulk of your content is in one fs/depth, I'd just leave it at a nice happy medium and be done with it. Relocking takes time.

 

[PurpleAngel]

Quote:

Not to repeat myself for the fourth time (

), but:
1. You cannot do multi-channel PCM via S/PDIF. It does not have enough bandwidth. The settings you have provided cannot accomplish what you want.
2. You will have to set the software output to 5.1 and then upmix stereo content to 5.1 to use DTS Connect or Dolby Digital Live - you do not want to do this for music, you only need to do this for videogames.
3. With movies, simply bitstream AC-3 or DTS from the disc through the player software.
4. You need to go into the receiver's set-up menu and configure the channel map - it will not auto-detect the subwoofer just because you plugged in the RCA lead.

The Xonar DS and DSX do not come with Dolby, just DTS.