Out Of Your Head - new virtual surround simulator
Aug 29, 2016 at 6:08 PM Post #766 of 1,244

musiclover2015

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  The EQ sliders shown will affect the selected speaker(s). To select which you'd like to EQ, there should be a white box on the right with selectable speakers. It defaults to *All I believe, and with that selected the changes made to the EQ via the sliders should apply to all the digital speakers in OOYH. To better see a difference that an EQ can make, I'd recommend making a flat preset and a EQed preset you can switch between via the white box on the lower left corner. Just click save once you made a EQ and save it, and it should show up in that box like the rest (try starting it with a number so it shows up at the top of the list since they are listed alphabetically)

wait, what !! I need to play those with OOYH for 7.1 effect, I thought it was an alternative to OOYH.
 
Aug 29, 2016 at 6:35 PM Post #767 of 1,244

darinf

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  The EQ sliders shown will affect the selected speaker(s). To select which you'd like to EQ, there should be a white box on the right with selectable speakers. It defaults to *All I believe, and with that selected the changes made to the EQ via the sliders should apply to all the digital speakers in OOYH. To better see a difference that an EQ can make, I'd recommend making a flat preset and a EQed preset you can switch between via the white box on the lower left corner. Just click save once you made a EQ and save it, and it should show up in that box like the rest (try starting it with a number so it shows up at the top of the list since they are listed alphabetically)

Just to clarify, you do need to make sure the box that @thekorsen mentioned. But that drop down box allows you to select which Windows audio output device you want too apply the EQ to. It does not have to do with the individual Out Of Your Head Speaker presets. If you want to apply the EQ to just Out Of Your Head, then select the first entry called "Speakers, Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio Device". (The 2nd one is the Out Of Your Head 16bit driver for ROON, so don't select that one unless you are using Roon.)
 
Otherwise, I have found that the "Any Device" selection should work. I don't think the EQ will get applied twice (once for the Out Of Your Head device and once again when Out Of Your Head outputs to your DAC.) I am not 100% sure though.
 
Aug 29, 2016 at 6:38 PM Post #768 of 1,244

darinf

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  wait, what !! I need to play those with OOYH for 7.1 effect, I thought it was an alternative to OOYH.

Sorry, it's not a free alternative to Out Of Your Head! 
biggrin.gif

 
It can be used as an EQ and channel upconverter for use with Out Of Your Head since Out Of Your Head has neither of those functions.
 
Sep 2, 2016 at 11:47 PM Post #769 of 1,244

thekorsen

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For those that are interested, there was a cool article over at innerfidelity on spacial audio processing. Sounds like the last paper mentioned in the article focuses on the same kind of processing OOYH uses, and how to potentially artificially increase the processes's perceived fidelity without overly affecting processing time. Gets you thinking how long it's going to be until this kind of technology trickles down to the layman with so many big audio companies directing their attention at the tech to refine and optimize it thanks to the VR and AR boom.
 
Sep 3, 2016 at 4:18 AM Post #770 of 1,244

krismusic

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For those that are interested, there was a cool article over at innerfidelity on spacial audio processing. Sounds like the last paper mentioned in the article focuses on the same kind of processing OOYH uses, and how to potentially artificially increase the processes's perceived fidelity without overly affecting processing time. Gets you thinking how long it's going to be until this kind of technology trickles down to the layman with so many big audio companies directing their attention at the tech to refine and optimize it thanks to the VR and AR boom.

The future IMHO. Forget listening for bat squeak differences between DAC's or amps. Personally I am not interested in VR but the potential for this technology is jaw dropping. i.e. The Smyth Realiser. :)
 
Sep 3, 2016 at 3:10 PM Post #771 of 1,244

phoenixdogfan

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​It amazes me how much time and effort is devoted to analyzing minute  sonic differences which can not be heard well enough  to differentiate components in blind A-B matched levels testing let alone make  value judgements on those components.
 
If anyone thinks they can "hear" the difference between two amps one of which has a THD+N of 96db and the other of which has a THD+N of 115db, they should go to a site which plays the identical track at the identical volume level at those two noise levels and invites the listener to pick out which is which in a blind testing.  I guarantee the test results will open up your ears, to say nothing of your mind.
 
Meanwhile crucial things like poorly damped "first reflections"  and bass standing waves go ignored in speaker based listening.  Any aspiring audiophile would do much better by investing in room treatment including LEDE room treatment like Owens-Corning SV370 room tunes on the wall behind the speakers, bass traps in the corners, and more room tunes at the "first reflection" point on the side walls. Add a quality DSP based room and speaker correction system,  and you're a very long way toward killer sound even with modest electronics.
 
And on headphones,  DSP based EQ and speaker simulation will take a great headphone and give a give world class sound even with relatively modest electronics and cables.
 
Sep 4, 2016 at 3:23 AM Post #772 of 1,244

Takeanidea

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​It amazes me how much time and effort is devoted to analyzing minute  sonic differences which can not be heard well enough  to differentiate components in blind A-B matched levels testing let alone make  value judgements on those components.
 
on headphones,  DSP based EQ and speaker simulation will take a great headphone and give a give world class sound even with relatively modest electronics and cables.

This is what headfi is all about
bigsmile_face.gif
 Blind listening tests will always be a subject of contention.
 
Your 2nd comment , regarding speaker simulation especially, I use OOYH but ,being that my ears are unique to me , I do not find OOYH to be the final solution in headphone listening. My ears do not perceive this software as being like listening to world class loudspeakers. The sound is compressed and much detail is lost when comparing to the actual experience of sitting down in a living room and listening to real speakers.
I find OOYH useful for movies where the 7.1 works really well and makes the dialogue far better balanced and therefore easier to follow. I also find the software less fatiguing to listen to music with . Your statement regarding world class sound may work for you but it doesn't apply to me which is a real shame
 
Sep 4, 2016 at 1:19 PM Post #773 of 1,244

phoenixdogfan

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Sounds like you need a custom measurement.
 
Sep 9, 2016 at 12:02 AM Post #775 of 1,244

fatboycarney

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Hi all and Darin

I have just discovered this extremely interesting app and have played around a bit with it. I am still a bit puzzled on the best recommended setup

I am looking for the best movie experience I can get. I guess the part I dont really grasp is how the codecs are converted. Most of my movies have DTS-HD MA 5.1/7.1, is there a way to utilize this stream in OOYH? Would there even be an advantage?

I must really be missing something as I couldnt find much about this in the thread. lol

Darin I know you recommend one specific USB DAC but does that take full advantage of movies in 7.1?

Would it be better to use a higher end Sound card that supports Dolby Digital and DTS. I currently use the HDMI output from the motherboard into a receiver for my 7.1 setup but I was unable to get OOYH to make any impact to HDMI audio (which to me makes sense as its passing the compressed file to the receiver)

I was able to get setup via Plex and output using a Fiio E18K via USB to my headphones and watch via the HDMI video output. Is this the optimal config setup?

Sorry if these questions dont make sense but I am not putting the whole thing together just yet.

The software is fantastic that I can say. After using it in the Trial software I could never watch movies without this type of processing. I just want to make sure I understand how to get the best performance and fill in the gaps I seem to be missing

Thanks
 
Sep 9, 2016 at 12:22 AM Post #776 of 1,244

darinf

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Hi all and Darin

I have just discovered this extremely interesting app and have played around a bit with it. I am still a bit puzzled on the best recommended setup

I am looking for the best movie experience I can get. I guess the part I dont really grasp is how the codecs are converted. Most of my movies have DTS-HD MA 5.1/7.1, is there a way to utilize this stream in OOYH? Would there even be an advantage?

I must really be missing something as I couldnt find much about this in the thread. lol

Darin I know you recommend one specific USB DAC but does that take full advantage of movies in 7.1?

Would it be better to use a higher end Sound card that supports Dolby Digital and DTS. I currently use the HDMI output from the motherboard into a receiver for my 7.1 setup but I was unable to get OOYH to make any impact to HDMI audio (which to me makes sense as its passing the compressed file to the receiver)

I was able to get setup via Plex and output using a Fiio E18K via USB to my headphones and watch via the HDMI video output. Is this the optimal config setup?

Sorry if these questions dont make sense but I am not putting the whole thing together just yet.

The software is fantastic that I can say. After using it in the Trial software I could never watch movies without this type of processing. I just want to make sure I understand how to get the best performance and fill in the gaps I seem to be missing

Thanks


Hi @fatboycarney, Thanks for posting.

First, Out Of Your Head does not do any audio decoding. It relies on your media player app to do that. But, most media players will decode Dolby and DTS audio including 7.1. For example, JRiver Media Center, or Kodi.TV will decode 7.1 on both Windows and Mac. Also, most Blu-Ray player apps will do it also. Often it's not documented, but you can try the various apps to check.

So, for movies, especially in 7.1, most people use a internal or external Blu-Ray reader to play Blu-Ray movies. Both JRiver and Kodi support optical drives. Alternately you can rip the movies, but that can be tricky to preserve the 7.1 audio.

Regardless, when the media player plays the movie, the audio is decoded and sent to the Out Of Your Head Virtual Sound card as discrete PCM audio data. Then Out Of Your Head does it's processing to give you the sound of listening to 8 speakers in a room.

We don't officially recommend any particular headphones, DAC, or amp. It' really up to you what you like. Since Out Of Your Head outputs a processed two channel audio signal, you only need a stereo DAC. No special requirements needed.

If you have an AV receiver connected to the HDMI output of your computer, then you can have Out Of Your Head send the processed two channel audio to your receiver via HDMI. However, you have to make sure you disable all surround or headphone processing in your AV receiver. Then you have too use the headphone jack of your receiver to listen. Just remember Out Of Your Head processed audio output is always 2 channel regardless of the source.

So, to use HDMI to your headphones, the signal path would be:
Media Player app (Plex?) --> Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio Device --> HDMI audio output device (listed in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel) --> AV Receiver (all audio processing disabled) --> Headphones
(You don't have to rely on the AV receiver for doing the Dolby/DTS decoding. That's done by Plex before.)

In your 2nd example, yes, you can go from Plex --> Out Of Your Head Virtual Audio Device --> Fiio 18K DAC --> headphones.

You don't need a higher end sound card unless you want to use it for your headphones instead of the Fiio. Either one will function as a DAC and amp for your headphones.

I hope that clarifies a little. Of course, e-mail us if you have specific questions for setting everything up. Sometimes there are specific settings for getting 7.1 working in the various media player apps. Some of the settings are listed in the Out Of Your Head User's Manual in the Appendix.

Thanks again,
-Darin
 
Sep 9, 2016 at 12:31 PM Post #777 of 1,244

fatboycarney

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@darinf

Thanks so much for the reply. Geez now I totally get it. i have for so long simply done passthrough that I had discounted what these applications can do today. Initially I know passthrough to receiver was the only option but having a look on the Plex support site they now do support the HD codecs.

Appreciate the detailed answer and once I get all my hardware look for my purchase of your software

Thanks!
 
Sep 13, 2016 at 8:03 PM Post #778 of 1,244

Paradigm

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Something has changed with this software. I downloaded the newest version after using whatever previous one I had for the last 8-9 months. The new updated version seems louder, before I had to crank my headphone amp all the way up now I have to turn things down. The problem is it almost feels like someone artificially turned the master volume up the gain higher in the decibels, sort of artificial software +audio boost. The mid range is more piecing now when listening to music and watching movies. I noticed that what ever changes have been made, one issue has been fixed which was the excessive clipping(which was resolved by turning down the input channel causing it) in movies when things got really loud. With this version these issues rarely arise now. Also the audio delay used to be around 450ms when I installed the new version I noticed after playing with Lav decoder that Darin has managed to lower the DSP processing time to around 250ms,before I got the audio to sync correctly in MPC-HC.
 
For reference My PC is using a Titanium HD and I think I read somewhere Darin mentioning that there was an issue or bug in his software with the DAC creative Labs was using. Could this change be the cause of what I am experiencing now?
 
Changes I noticed.
This new version has a 16bit mode I don't ever use it.
Audio latency has been decreased
16bit mode add( I assume this was added for gaming, giving way to lower latency)
New presets added, MartinLogan, JMlabs etc...
 
 
Anyhow I kind of prefer the older version, I can't quite put my finger on why this one sounds worse to me other than what I already mentioned. I was wondering Darin if you might be able to give me a few pointers on what has happened and maybe some advice on any alternative options I might be able to change to resolve this minor issue. 
 
Here is an example for 2 channel audio. 24bit 96Hz properly mastered audio track with beautiful dynamic range and smooth highs. I now have to turn down the input channels as shown below for left and right. When the saxophone hits in the track it pierces my ears. Never had this problem with the older OFYH. By the way my headphones are HD650.
 

 
Sep 13, 2016 at 8:19 PM Post #779 of 1,244

darinf

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  Something has changed with this software. I downloaded the newest version after using whatever previous one I had for the last 8-9 months. The new updated version seems louder, before I had to crank my headphone amp all the way up now I have to turn things down. The problem is it almost feels like someone artificially turned the master volume up the gain higher in the decibels, sort of artificial software +audio boost. The mid range is more piecing now when listening to music and watching movies. I noticed that what ever changes have been made, one issue has been fixed which was the excessive clipping(which was resolved by turning down the input channel causing it) in movies when things got really loud. With this version these issues rarely arise now. Also the audio delay used to be around 450ms when I installed the new version I noticed after playing with Lav decoder that Darin has managed to lower the DSP processing time to around 250ms,before I got the audio to sync correctly in MPC-HC.
 
For reference My PC is using a Titanium HD and I think I read somewhere Darin mentioning that there was an issue or bug in his software with the DAC creative Labs was using. Could this change be the cause of what I am experiencing now?
 
Changes I noticed.
This new version has a 16bit mode I don't ever use it.
Audio latency has been decreased
16bit mode add( I assume this was added for gaming, giving way to lower latency)
New presets added, MartinLogan, JMlabs etc...
 
 
Anyhow I kind of prefer the older version, I can't quite put my finger on why this one sounds worse to me other than what I already mentioned. I was wondering Darin if you might be able to give me a few pointers on what has happened and maybe some advice on option I might be able to change to resolve this minor issue. 

Hi @Paradigm
Thanks for your post.
 
It sounds like you were using a pre-low latency engine version of Out Of Your Head.
 
ON thing that has changed is that we did change the overall volume. But we also changed the "0db" level in the Out Of Your Head Control Panel. However, since your previous level settings are saved from one version to the next, there is a bug that if your old version levels were set to the top at 0dB, when you install the new version, the input levels will all be set to +6dB or the top of the slider levels rather than back down at 0dB.
 
So to reset the levels back down to 0db, you can click on the "Reset" button for each of the speaker presets you use to "reset" all the levels back to 0dB. You have to do that separately for each of the speaker presets. This will essentially overwrite your previous level settings.
 
Perhaps this could have something to do with the change in the sound you are experiencing. We did completely rewrite the processing engine to be low latency, but the resulting sound should not have changed.
 
Previously we did have compatibility issues with some Creative devices. However the latest version should fix most of those compatibility issues. However, the problems would result in Out Of Your Head not working at all with the Creative device. If it's working (as yours seems to be), then you are good to go. The problems did not result in any audio degradation.
 
The 16bit mode is only used with ROON Labs. For ALL other sources, leave 16bit mode off. 16bit mode will only work with Roon.
 
You should be getting much lower latency than 250ms. On our systems our typical latencies tend to be anywhere from 30ms to 120ms on all presets when streaming, gaming, or playing directly from JRiver, VLC, etc. Generally the latency is low enough that you shouldn't have to adjust the audio sync and you should be able too stream and game unlike before. If you are very sensitive to lip sync, then you may still have to tweak the audio sync.
 
If you want to downgrade back to the pre-low latency version, please contact us and we can e-mail you instructions for doing so.
 
Let me know if you have any other questions,
-Darin
 
Sep 13, 2016 at 8:32 PM Post #780 of 1,244

Paradigm

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Thank you Darin for responding to my inquiry. First off the reason why the latency is much higher in movie mode is because MPC-HC has about 41-60ms latency from all the crazy MADVR imagine enhancement settings I use. With that being said I will try to lower the latency still to see if I get proper audio sync. Usually what I do is I play a movie at half or quarter speed to see when the lips begin to move to match the latency spot on. As of right now it looks good though.
 
Also Darin you guys must have done something with the engine that reduced the amount of clipping that would take place in movies, there is much less now.
 
BTW what in the heck is Roon if you don't mind me asking?
 

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