[John2e]

Interested in the science behind these. Do they have any practical value or use in audio. Can they influence or enhance the sound.  I've seen some that go for $12,000. Some seem to purport to regenerate your electricity 

 
 
Thanks in advance! 

 

[GuyUnder]

They take your AC mains power, run it through a transformer and generate a pure AC output on the other end. The concept is that by doing this, all the high frequency noise that comes in from the public utility lines is kept out of your audio system. They are popular solutions with high end turntable owners due to their sesnitivity to mains quality. There are a class of UPSs that do the same thing, called double-filtering.

I've shied away from regeneration because of so many people reporting a loss of dynamic performance and/or other negative sound quality issues along with the greater clarity. Personally I've tried to deal with mains noise using filtering cables and premium receptacles (Lessloss Original and Furutech GTX-D NFC(R)). Power filtering devices are another option.

 

[watchnerd]

  Interested in the science behind these. Do they have any practical value or use in audio. Can they influence or enhance the sound.  I've seen some that go for $12,000. Some seem to purport to regenerate your electricity 

 
 
Thanks in advance! 

 
If you're going to decide this is a problem that you should address, don't go half way -- get disconnected from the grid entirely and use only batteries.

 

[John2e]

   
If you're going to decide this is a problem that you should address, don't go half way -- get disconnected from the grid entirely and use only batteries.

Thanks
 
Not sure if it a problem.  I am always looking on how to achieve the best sound. I see what the science forums opinion on cables is. Curious to hear opinions on what effect these conditioners and regenerators have on sound and whether it's worth investing in.  Also if there is any scientific merit behind such devices. There seems to be a wide range in price from the Furmans to the Shinyutas 

 

[watchnerd]

 
Thanks
 
Not sure if it a problem.  I am always looking on how to achieve the best sound. I see what the science forums opinion on cables is. Curious to hear opinions on what effect these conditioners and regenerators have on sound and weather its worth investing in.  Also if there is any scientific merit behind such devices. There seems to be a wide range in price from the Furmans to the Shinyutas 

 
Are you familiar with how the power supply inside an audio device works?
 
It acts like a firewall to the electronics inside.
 
If it's a good one, the electronics inside can't 'see past' the power supply.  It's a black box to them, they're electrically isolated from the grid, and see only the juice supplied to them by the supply rails of the circuit.
 
I don't know of any listening tests that have tested the audibility of fancy AC cords and beyond.
 
More importantly: why do you think this is a problem that you need to address?
 
Do you have hum?  Do you have a high noise floor?  Do you have measured electrical noise in the audible band on your gear?
 
If the answer is 'no' to all of these, I would suggest this is probably not something that should be a high priority.

 

[GuyUnder]

   
Are you familiar with how the power supply inside an audio device works?
 
It acts like a firewall to the electronics inside.
 
If it's a good one, the electronics inside can't 'see past' the power supply.  It's a black box to them, they're electrically isolated from the grid, and see only the juice supplied to them by the supply rails of the circuit.
 
I don't know of any listening tests that have tested the audibility of fancy AC cords and beyond.
 
More importantly: why do you think this is a problem that you need to address?
 
Do you have hum?  Do you have a high noise floor?  Do you have measured electrical noise in the audible band on your gear?
 
If the answer is 'no' to all of these, I would suggest this is probably not something that should be a high priority.

 
The "black box" statement is false. In fact, high frequency noise can cross into a device's power supplies and ground plane. Some products are more susceptible to it than others -- generally a device with a beefy power supply with lots of capacitance will reduce the noise input a great deal (of course, big power supplies and capacitor banks have their own noise challenges). Some products, like the Vinnie Rossi LIO and UpTone LPS-1 replace their power supplies altogether with a large bank of super capacitors, which greatly (or maybe entirely?) eliminates AC noise.
 
In regards to cables, some do perform AC noise filtering such as the Lessloss cables and a few of the upper end Shunyatas, etc. Most high end cables don't claim to do any filtering; any quality increase comes from properties like resonance control, better capacitance / resistance, good EMI rejection, skin effect manipulation, etc and so on. 

 

[watchnerd]

   
The "black box" statement is false. In fact, high frequency noise can cross into a device's power supplies and ground plane. Some products are more susceptible to it than others -- generally a device with a beefy power supply with lots of capacitance will reduce the noise input a great deal (of course, big power supplies and capacitor banks have their own noise challenges). Some products, like the Vinnie Rossi LIO and UpTone LPS-1 replace their power supplies altogether with a large bank of super capacitors, which greatly (or maybe entirely?) eliminates AC noise.
 
In regards to cables, some do perform AC noise filtering such as the Lessloss cables and a few of the upper end Shunyatas, etc. Most high end cables don't claim to do any filtering; any quality increase comes from properties like resonance control, better capacitance / resistance, good EMI rejection, skin effect manipulation, etc and so on. 

 
Did you see this part?
 
"If it's a good one"
 
If it's a good one, meaning the isolation is good, there is no power supply noise in the audible band that rises to audible levels.
 
In which case, it's a black box.

 

[watchnerd]

Also, you should really stop trying confuse new people with statements that lack supporting data, such as:
 
 
Quote:

 
Some products, like the Vinnie Rossi LIO and UpTone LPS-1 replace their power supplies altogether with a large bank of super capacitors, which greatly (or maybe entirely?) eliminates AC noise.
 

 
Do you have data to support this?
 
Or is it just you repeating their marketing, as you've done so often?

 

[pinnahertz]

They take your AC mains power, run it through a transformer and generate a pure AC output on the other end.

A transformer isn't a filter, the AC will pass through it with very little change in waveform purity.

The concept is that by doing this, all the high frequency noise that comes in from the public utility lines is kept out of your audio system.

There may occasionally be some high frequency noise on power lines, but typically, they're quite clean.

They are popular solutions with high end turntable owners due to their sesnitivity to mains quality.

They might be popular, but the need is imagined, not real.

There are a class of UPSs that do the same thing, called double-filtering.

There is no such class of UPS. There are power line filters, but not included in a UPS.

I've shied away from regeneration because of so many people reporting a loss of dynamic performance and/or other negative sound quality issues along with the greater clarity.

Complete nonsense.

Personally I've tried to deal with mains noise using filtering cables and premium receptacles (Lessloss Original and Furutech GTX-D NFC(R)). Power filtering devices are another option.

Probably never bothered to actually test for line noise. People apply filters but there's usually nothing to filter.

 

[pinnahertz]

   
The "black box" statement is false. In fact, high frequency noise can cross into a device's power supplies and ground plane. Some products are more susceptible to it than others -- generally a device with a beefy power supply with lots of capacitance will reduce the noise input a great deal (of course, big power supplies and capacitor banks have their own noise challenges). Some products, like the Vinnie Rossi LIO and UpTone LPS-1 replace their power supplies altogether with a large bank of super capacitors, which greatly (or maybe entirely?) eliminates AC noise.
 
In regards to cables, some do perform AC noise filtering such as the Lessloss cables and a few of the upper end Shunyatas, etc. Most high end cables don't claim to do any filtering; any quality increase comes from properties like resonance control, better capacitance / resistance, good EMI rejection, skin effect manipulation, etc and so on. 

1. You clearly have no idea what a "ground plane" even is.  The idea that high frequency noise can enter from a devices "ground plane" is just silly.  
2. Your concept of power supply design is completely wrong.  You can't replace a "power supply altogether with a large bank of super capacitors".  That just won't work at all!
3. Cables don't filter.
4. Cables don't resonate.  If they do, they won't work for anything other than to transmit a resonant frequency.
5. Everything else in the above post from GuyUnder is complete nonsense, and should be ignored.

 

[rlpaul]

If you have unreliable power (read, voltage spikes/drops), I can see running it through a UPS, as that'll provide protection for the equipment itself.
 
Beyond that... it would have to have a really poorly designed power supply and isolation to make a difference IMO.

 

[pinnahertz]

If you have unreliable power (read, voltage spikes/drops), I can see running it through a UPS, as that'll provide protection for the equipment itself.

A UPS will provide interrupted power during a brownout or outage but provides no surge or spike protection, nor any noise filtering. It won't necessarily protect equipment from electrical damage by itself, but can prevent data loss by keeping computer systems powered the during an outage, at least long enough for a graceful shut down. Surge protection is an entirely different matter.

 

[rlpaul]

 

  If you have unreliable power (read, voltage spikes/drops), I can see running it through a UPS, as that'll provide protection for the equipment itself.

A UPS will provide interrupted power during a brownout or outage but provides no surge or spike protection, nor any noise filtering. It won't necessarily protect equipment from electrical damage by itself, but can prevent data loss by keeping computer systems powered the during an outage, at least long enough for a graceful shut down. Surge protection is an entirely different matter.

 
To be fair, I haven't seen a UPS not have surge protection. Yes, they're two separate circuits, but surge protection is typically included.
 
For that matter, and the discussion at hand, a surge protector is probably all most people will ever need. But I wouldn't use one in because it 'improves audio quality', but because it offers some protection against the heavy thunderstorms we get here.

 

[watchnerd]

   
To be fair, I haven't seen a UPS not have surge protection. Yes, they're two separate circuits, but surge protection is typically included.
 
For that matter, and the discussion at hand, a surge protector is probably all most people will ever need. But I wouldn't use one in because it 'improves audio quality', but because it offers some protection against the heavy thunderstorms we get here.

 
My Tripp Lite surge protector has nice lights that make listening to music more interesting and exciting.  
 
It's like Christmas all year.

 

[pinnahertz]

   
To be fair, I haven't seen a UPS not have surge protection. Yes, they're two separate circuits, but surge protection is typically included.
 
For that matter, and the discussion at hand, a surge protector is probably all most people will ever need. But I wouldn't use one in because it 'improves audio quality', but because it offers some protection against the heavy thunderstorms we get here.

Yes, but the surge protection in a UPS is fairly rudimentary, and frankly, in the wrong place to be very effective.  Good surge protection, particularly of common-mode surges, needs to have a really low impedance ground, and that's not something typically found at the location of a UPS, at least a smallish one in a home or office.  There are several classes of surge protectors too.  In areas prone to high voltage surges, like Florida, the lightning capital of the world, you need to get fairly serious about surge protection, at the premise level, and a good low resistance ground.  At devices, you'll want something that really does protect a surge, that actually senses the overvoltage and disconnect the device, not just a sacrificial MOV.  
 
None of that equates to the surge protection in a UPS. 
 
None of that improves audio or video performance either, unless you consider working gear as out performing smoking gear.  
 
And none of the above is "power conditioning".
 
I kinda hate the hype-ish presentation but the demo is pretty good:
https://youtu.be/4j8cH6l2YjE
 
I don't work for the company, and often actually recommend a competitor, but it shows the difference between the hardware store sacrificial MOV surge protector, and something with overvoltage sensing.  It doesn't demonstrate a common-mode surge, of course, but you get the idea.