[j-curve]

Wow, this thread is blowing up, can I join in?

I think the best phone to highlight amp differences is the one you plan to use with the amp. If that is undecided (or if there are too many to choose from) then a neutral, accurate headphone without colouration.

Sweeping generalization #1: Amps have extremely flat frequency response (ie: are neutral).
SG #2: Amps have very low distortion (ie: are accurate and free from colouration ).

It makes sense that if you want to hear differences between two neutral and accurate amps then you will need a headphone of comparable performance. [Closed phones may not sound wooly but most have significant colouration. My "wooly" HD580 is no longer wooly thanks to low impedance amplifiers and an impeder].

If two amps satisfy SG #1 & #2 and are free from hiss, hum etc., what differences are you looking for? Doesn't it then come down to a choice of what flavour of distortion you prefer, even or odd harmonics, etc.?

Let me stir up the audiophiles by suggesting that it should be possible to determine the good amps by measurement. To the extent that it's not, then we are not setting the test conditions properly, are not measuring the right things, or are not interpreting the results correctly.

In practice SG #1 & #2 are not always true, some amps are noisy and measurement data is not available. So it's back to square one and skip this post the second time through.

You need to do this ->

.

 

[zeplin]

Quote:

I would like to completely back up Cresendopower's opinions based on my own experiences, I am with his elitist statements 100%. High five. People think that the lack of gloss and emphasis on frequencies with excessive slam equates to veiled, that is retardedness, but they're free go about the way they feel like, not my problem that they don't have good taste. I don't think many people qualify to even know what veiled is, they don't know what an instrument is supposed to sound like in the first place, and also ties in with what I said above.

Uhhh, I think I know what many instruments are suppose to sound like...since I play them and listen (live) to them.

Yeah, I know that I'm not dumb for thinking that the HD600 is veiled so I'll pretend I didn't read that. I'm not going to make fun of you because you like to listen to yor music from 30 rows back, whereas I like to listen to mine from 5-10 rows back...that's just how it is...it's that simple. And I'll admit, I didn't really understand this before...I thought that the ones who called the HD600's more realistic than anything else were insane. But I was wrong. I don't even know why we are all having argumentive conversations about this. It has, and always will, get us absolutely nowhere! And I REALLY hate it when others push extremely hard in trying to persuade others that they are dumb or wrong for thinking one way. I hate it almost as much as someone preaching to another about religion.

CRES,
When I said you were putting words into his mouth, I was speaking of when you said, "Oh and, by the way, not everyone on this site thinks the HD600's are veiled." There's no way elnero ever said that...that's what I'm taling about.

Something just came to my attention...maybe some of you can help me cmore clearly unserstand this...
And I'm not talking about live classical music...
At rock concerts, or mostly anything else, the fact that a band amplifys their performance makes it sound unnatural to both the listeners that are there, (live) and the listeners of the recorded copy at home, right? Well, then when a headphone mirrors that unnatural, amplified sound simply because it is on the recording, isn't that reason enough for a headphone to sound more forward in its presentation? So how, in this instance, would a headphone with a more forward sound be unnatural? I see the forward sounding phone as straying far less off from the live performance versus how much certain phones that are very or extremely laid back, and therefore stray even farther of from the live performance. Sorry if I didn't word this very well. I haven't totally been able to express myself with audio as well as I can when, for example, writing a paper fro school.u

 

[CRESCENDOPOWER]

Quote:

Originally posted by Hirsch Crescendopower, I've got a $150 DVD player and a portable amp, but I've got other sources too. Is any of my equipment good enough for me to have an opinion?

Not only is your equipment good enough, but you also have the experience to know what I am saying is right. I have seen tons of threads in the last 6 months where people with complete **** for equipment (even using a computer, or portable CD player for a source, and amp) are buying the HD-600s, and other members in the thread don't even bother to look in the person's profile, and tell them the truth.
I've just come to the conclusion that if the new members think that I am being arrogant for telling them that their equipment is not up to the task for a certain phone, so be it. I'll recommend the Sony V-6, lower Koss line, certain Beyers, and Grados till I puke; certainly not a phone like the HD-600s that requires adequate voltage swing, and at least a respectable source.

 

[wallijonn]

no such animal. low impedance, mid impedance, high impedance and very high impedance headphones will all sound differently from op amp / solid state amp / tube amps with their attendent differences in driving a certain load optimally.

zeplin,

exactly where are "live" headphones situated in a live concert? and do you really think that the microphones pick up the instruments when it's so much easier to tap into the electronic signal path directly? live microphones are usually situated to pick up the vocals. any electric instrument will be tapped prior to the amp (usually at the mixing console).

 

[elnero]

Why so defensive CRESCENDOPOWER???

You'd think I'd run out and yelled that the HD600's were the worst headphone ever.

I really suggest you go back and reread my posts. I in no way was trying to start a flame war with my initial post. If you took it the wrong way I apologize but I think you need to lighten up and be a bit more objective in your opinions.

First off you people seem to be far to focused on my use of the "veil". My use of the "veil" was only to illustrate a point I was trying to make. It was not used to put down the 600's and it was not used as a reason as to why I feel the 600's are not the best headphone to illustrate differences in amps, it was only used to illustrate an example. Again go back and reread what I posted. In another post I tried to use the mid bass hump to illustrate the same example. Whether or not you percieve the "veil" or the mid bass hump is irrelevant. If you prefer think of them as theoretical. For example go back and reread but insert "theoretically if the HD600's have a veil..." or "theoretically if the HD600's have a mid bass hump"

Now as for Audio&Me, It's really too bad that you have to be such an ass because I think you have some interesting perspectives and a decent amount of knowledge but your attitude only serves to make you look, to loosely quote you, "dumb". (And I'm quite sure the incessant need for me to clarify my statements and get into these stupid little battles does me no justice either.)

You seem focused on my experience. While I'm new to headphones I'm certainly not new to music or audio. I've been playing instruments from violin to cello to double bass and bass guitar as well as a bit of piano and vocals since I was five. I've perfomed in orchestra's as well as live rock bands. I've been trained as an audio engineer. I've worked in a high end audio store as well as with a high end speaker manufacturer. I think I know what an instrument is supposed to sound like. I also think I have enough experience in the music and audio industry to know what to listen for and to know what I'm hearing as well as make educated as well as informed opinions.

The focus has also been on my equipment. While I'll admit my equipment isn't of the highest calibre it's silly to think or to say that I have no grounds for an opinion. The question asked for a headphone that illustrates differences in amps. That implies all amps including mine, not just the ones that make the HD600's sound good. I'm also not stupid, I have researched and read many opinions from people using higher end equipment that have opinions that mirror my own. I would not have posted my opinion if I had only heard it on my system and not researched it and found other people that have come to the same conclusion regardless of equipment quality or costs.

Quote:

...certainly not a phone like the HD-600s that requires adequate voltage swing, and at least a respectable source.

Now certainly this illustrates my point better than I could myself. If the HD600's have these stringent requirements for amplification how can they be considered the best headphone to illustrate amp differences?

 

[RVD]

To me no headphone really is good at showing amp differences as most headphones react different depending on what amp they are paired too. I would say which headphone changes the most from the use of different amps is a better way to say what headphone is best at showing amp differences.

I would say the HD600's change the most with the use of different headphone amps with the CD3000 and W2002 being tied for second, in my experience.

Also I would say Ety's definitely don't change much at all depending on the headphone amp as they sound just about the same out of anything.

EDIT: I almost forgot the HP-2. I haven’t had as much experience with the HP2 and different amps as I have with the CD3000, W2002, and HD600, but I would say they are tied with the CD3000 and W2002 if not closer to the HD600.

 

[tigger]

Quote:

Originally posted by CRESCENDOPOWER Not only is your equipment good enough, but you also have the experience to know what I am saying is right. I have seen tons of threads in the last 6 months where people with complete **** for equipment (even using a computer, or portable CD player for a source, and amp) are buying the HD-600s, and other members in the thread don't even bother to look in the person's profile, and tell them the truth. I've just come to the conclusion that if the new members think that I am being arrogant for telling them that their equipment is not up to the task for a certain phone, so be it. I'll recommend the Sony V-6, lower Koss line, certain Beyers, and Grados till I puke; certainly not a phone like the HD-600s that requires adequate voltage swing, and at least a respectable source.

This is a little off the subject, but I have to jump in here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you are saying is that people who chose to use portable sources either for practical reasons or otherwise, should not waste their time with high quality or hard to drive headphones? The following is a quote from Jan Meier's partner and engineer Harry, who with an extensive background in Audio choses to listen to Sennheiser HD 600s unamped.
"Other than that I am listening to Sennheiser HD600 headphones. They are not the most natural performers, but fun to listen to. They work astonishing well even with portable equipment. My current favourite headphone is the AKG K1000. However, since the AKG needs to be driven by a power amplifier and they do leak a lot, I am waiting for its successor…"
This from one who has access to Corda HA2s, Preheads and the like! Harry is not by any means the only one who is content to listen to high quality headphones with portable equipment. There are many others on this forum.
My point is that one can tell and appreciate the differences between high quality headphones. Yes, we know they will not be performing at their optimum level, all headphones benefit from an amplifier, but you cannot blindly state that if someone doesn't have a CRESCENDOPOWER approved source then their opinion isn't qualified.

 

[CRESCENDOPOWER]

Quote:

Originally posted by tigger This is a little off the subject, but I have to jump in here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you are saying is that people who chose to use portable sources either for practical reasons or otherwise, should not waste their time with high quality or hard to drive headphones? The following is a quote from Jan Meier's partner and engineer Harry, who with an extensive background in Audio choses to listen to Sennheiser HD 600s unamped. "Other than that I am listening to Sennheiser HD600 headphones. They are not the most natural performers, but fun to listen to. They work astonishing well even with portable equipment. My current favourite headphone is the AKG K1000. However, since the AKG needs to be driven by a power amplifier and they do leak a lot, I am waiting for its successor…" This from one who has access to Corda HA2s, Preheads and the like! Harry is not by any means the only one who is content to listen to high quality headphones with portable equipment. There are many others on this forum. My point is that one can tell and appreciate the differences between high quality headphones. Yes, we know they will not be performing at their optimum level, all headphones benefit from an amplifier, but you cannot blindly state that if someone doesn't have a CRESCENDOPOWER approved source then their opinion isn't qualified.

Yep! The guy has got a title, so he must be right! You win tigger. The HD-600s can be driven properly from a portable CD player. Thanks for letting me know, so I can sell all my equipment.

 

[Nik]

I never changed many amplifiers as from I have the R10. It's incredible as this cans has his own personality and even a very hi capacity to revel any detail of the amps used with them.

Nicola

 

[tigger]

"Yep! The guy has got a title, so he must be right! You win tigger. The HD-600s can be driven properly from a portable CD player. Thanks for letting me know, so I can sell all my equipment."

CRESCENDOPOWER,

It's not about winning, just a discussion between friends. In my last sentence, I did state " Yes, we know they will not be performing at their optimum level, all headphones benefit from an amplifier ".

 

[Audio-Me]

^ haha

I don't see why people take offense so easily, I was not directing my statements to anyone in particular, I was merely trying to castrate the damn "veiled" nonsense. About having proper acoustic knowledge, I believe that holds true to many people and I value their opinions less when it comes to identifying how good something is.