[radrd]

Anyone use Etys to see differences between amps? Last time I checked markl isn't a fan of Etys, but they seem like they would make it pretty easy to discern differences.

 

[CRESCENDOPOWER]

Quote:

Originally posted by radrd Anyone use Etys to see differences between amps? Last time I checked markl isn't a fan of Etys, but they seem like they would make it pretty easy to discern differences.

radrd,

I think a lot of this has to do with the headphones need for amplification. It's pretty much common knowledge that a low impedance/high sensitivity headphone has less of a demand for an amp than a high impedance/lower sensitivity phone. If you don't believe me ask Markl, he is running his Sony MDR-10s off of his Denon receiver, and feels no need for a headphone amp.
As for the Etys, there demand for a high-powered amp is not of such importance, but a quality one certainly wouldn't hurt. But, I will agree with you, if there is anything on this planet that is "transparent" it's the Etys, more so, than any speakers I have ever heard regardless of price.

 

[markl]

Nope, its the Grados I don't like.

I liked the Ety's fine, but I found them very intrusive and uncomfortable. Still-- it's incredible that that tiny little rod can produce so much sound, it's a marvel of engineering.
Quote:

It's pretty much common knowledge that a low impedance/high sensitivity headphone has less of a demand for an amp than a high impedance/lower sensitivity phone. If you don't believe me ask Markl, he is running his Sony MDR-10s off of his Denon receiver

As you well know, every headphone jack is by definition a "headphone amp", so the Denon is functioning as my "headphone amp". My theory is NOT that you don't need a headphone amp. My theory is that a headphone amp is nothing but a pre-amp by another name. If you have a good pre-amp with a headphone jack, very likely you have a good headamp. Buying a separate headamp means you have to spend as much on that additional box as you already have on your pre-amp, to get something at the same level.
As you also know, many of the better headamps also double as minimalist pre-amps, and serve very well in that function. Since my Denon has a great pre-amp section, it turns out it also has a great headphone jack, at least in combo with my R10s.

Mark

 

[radrd]

Quote:

Nope, its the Grados I don't like. I liked the Ety's fine, but I found them very intrusive and uncomfortable. Still-- it's incredible that that tiny little rod can produce so much sound, it's a marvel of engineering.

Maybe I have you confused with someone else?

 

[Vertigo-1]

Etys are so-so. I'd venture to say they're not very good for testing minute differences between upper echelon gear. Why exactly, I haven't been able to get a finger on yet, but it may have something to do with their always smooth, always unfatiguing way of presenting everything, regardless of what they're hooked up to. My experience with this is coming from trying to compare interconnects with Etys, something that is even harder then finding differences between amps. It's an absolute bitch trying to find differences between interconnects using Etys, that was where I thought all cables pratically sounded the same.

Without a doubt though, Etys are not very good at showing off soundstaging (or headstaging in our case) differences between amps or cables, due to their relative complete lack of a headstage.

 

[tigger]

Quote:

Originally posted by CRESCENDOPOWER radrd, It's pretty much common knowledge that a low impedance/high sensitivity headphone has less of a demand for an amp than a high impedance/lower sensitivity phone.

Not quite that simple. Low impedence headphones require high current from an amplifier which can be very demanding while high impedence phones require high voltage, also demanding, especially for a battery powered unit. Some may require both. That's one of the things that makes it difficult to design an amp which performs well with all headphones. Note the flexibility built in to the Meta 42 for example to fine tune it for different headphones.

 

[elnero]

Quote:

Originally posted by CRESCENDOPOWER See, that's the part you don't understand all headphones have certain traits, and just because a phone sounds brighter, faster, and clearer with lower level equipment certainly doesn't qualify it as having the ability to better tell the differences between amps.

I understand this quite well thank you very much, but the same applies in the reverse, just because a headphone has a high impedance doesn't qualify it as having the ability to better tell the differences in amps.

Quote:

Originally posted by CRESCENDOPOWER Oh, a by the way, not everyone on this site thinks the HD-600s are veiled.

I suggest you reread what I said. Yes there are people that have overcome the veil or even those that don't hear it at all, but I suspect there are quite a few more than that who do hear it. It's just that anytime someone mentions anything against the 600's the fanatics come out of the woodwork to staunchly defend their precioussssss, and start these stupid little wars. It's just not worth it so people keep their mouths shut.

Quote:

Originally posted by CRESCENDOPOWER If you want facts, the facts are the better the equipment you through at the HD-600s the better they sound

Is there anywhere that I said differently? In fact that's about exactly what my point was, but just because they sound better with better equipment doesn't make them the best headphone to distinguish amp differences. I'd be willing to make a bet that my setup would sound better with upgraded equipment as well. That's the nature of better equipment. The difference is, in my situation I don't feel the need to upgrade to overcome flaws I perceive in the headphone. But that has no real bearing on which headphone is best to tell differences in amps.

Quote:

Originally posted by CRESCENDOPOWER If all these ridiculous low impedance extremely bright phones that are comming from Audio Cubes are so "trasnsparent" why is everyone buying the RKV, and impedancer to hook up to them? Wouldn't they buy a more "neutral, or transparent" amp for them? You know, an amp that would tell them more of the "truth".

If you prefer your phones mired in mud, plodding along not able to keep pace, keeping you at arms length from the music that's your prerogative. (Ok, so I'm exaggerating a bit ) Just because you don't like these so called bright headphones doesn't mean they aren't revealing and it doesn't mean they are bad headphones. I would assume that people would buy the RKV because they like the sound of it, everyone has different priorities in sound. Personally from the descriptions the RKV doesn't really interest me. I'm far more intrigued by the EMP. Not everyone is looking for a completely neutral setup, some like tubes, some like the solid bass of good solid state. These are just generalizations but I think you get what I mean. Everyone has different priorities.

Quote:

Originally posted by CRESCENDOPOWER So, my questions are, why is so easy for me to tell the differences between tube swaps, cable changes, amp changes, and source changes with the wooly sounding HD-600s?

I’ll reply to this as well.

I'm quite sure the HD580/600's will reveal differences, especially after a cable upgrade and when the equipment is of higher quality or better match to them. Does that mean they are the "best" at it? No, I personally think there is probably better out there for that.

 

[Achilles]

I second Sony CD3000. It wasn't until I plugged in the cd3000 that I realized my Maxed Out Home bled with a background hiss - oh well, time to add another amp to the mix.

Of course, different cans point out different traits in an amp but I agree that the HD600 might be a little to laid back to drive those differences home.

 

[Geek]

The DT770 and CD3000 seem better at revealing amp noise, with the CD3000 being more detailed, sensitive, and smooth. The HD600 shows more variances with bottom end and midrange fullness though.

I will never truly know which headphone is best until they custom-cable CD3000s and a few others for the blockhead and then let me A-B them with a wild variety of tubed amps as well.

I really do not have the experience to know what is best, but it all seems to depend on what one is looking for.

Cheers,
Geek

 

[sliberman]

Is it possible to compare amplifiers or any other components
without first calibrating the headphones as shown by
S. Linkwitz (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/reference_earphones.htm/)?

I suppose it is possible, but what will be tested is the output
impedance of the amplifier plus its output voltage/current
characteristics matched or not to the heaphone. And the choice
of test signal/music.

 

[zeplin]

CRESCENDOPOWER,

I'm not trying to provoke any flaming reaction from you, but you really need to read a post more thoroughly before you reply to it...especially elneros posts. It's like you were putting words into his mouth.

To answer the original question from the thread starter, I believe I agree with what Geek has said...he put it perfectly...
It all depends on the specifics of what one is looking for in an amp...that's it, nothing more, nothing less!

 

[tigger]

Quote:

Originally posted by zeplin It all depends on the specifics of what one is looking for in an amp...that's it, nothing more, nothing less!

Since I started the thread;

The specifics are that one wants the best sound possible for the least amount of money possible in a battery powered portable.
This is of course hypothetical.

 

[CRESCENDOPOWER]

Quote:

Originally posted by zeplin CRESCENDOPOWER, I'm not trying to provoke any flaming reaction from you, but you really need to read a post more thoroughly before you reply to it...especially elneros posts. It's like you were putting words into his mouth.

Well, I think I did more than just read his post. I looked in his profile, and saw a $150.00 DVD player that has had nothing, but terrible reviews, and an amp whose primary purpose is for portable use. And, this person is going to tell me that his equipment is worthy of telling him what the HD-600s are capable of? I think I've been around these parts a little longer than that.

 

[Audio-Me]

I would like to completely back up Cresendopower's opinions based on my own experiences, I am with his elitist statements 100%. High five.

People think that the lack of gloss and emphasis on frequencies with excessive slam equates to veiled, that is retardedness, but they're free go about the way they feel like, not my problem that they don't have good taste. I don't think many people qualify to even know what veiled is, they don't know what an instrument is supposed to sound like in the first place, and also ties in with what I said above.

Geek - the 770s really don't reveal anything, they have an inherent noisy signature.

From the stuff I've heard, there's no other headphone that shows not only signatures but nuances of system changes more than my own HD600. With better equipment the flaws that you would still have with other headphones are fixed, what does that mean? It means these things scale like crazy, as in they are upto par for anything unlike most other stuff. I guarantee you some people with Wadia's use HD600s regularly.

Oh and the people who use the scapegoat "you Senn cult members always say its your source or its your amp", think about that a moment, why do you think they say that? Is it perhaps because they really are unforgiving of system suckiness? There is some truth to be learned in those statements if you're not too dense...

 

[Hirsch]

Quote:

Originally posted by Audio&Me People think that the lack of gloss and emphasis on frequencies with excessive slam equates to veiled, that is retardedness, but they're free go about the way they feel like, not my problem that they don't have good taste. I don't think many people qualify to even know what veiled is, they don't know what an instrument is supposed to sound like in the first place, and also ties in with what I said above. Geek - the 770s really don't reveal anything, they have an inherent noisy signature.

Perhaps you might want to use different words than "retardedness", particularly if you're going to say something like that comment about the Beyers in your next paragraph. While I agree that the HD-600 is not necessarily veiled (in some configurations it is, but that's not necessarily the headphone), the 770's are most certainly not inherently noisy. I'll refrain from using the obvious adjective, but the Beyers sound better when you use them with better equipment. Think through the implications of that statement, particularly in the context of the thread title.

Crescendopower, I've got a $150 DVD player and a portable amp, but I've got other sources too. Is any of my equipment good enough for me to have an opinion? FWIW, my take is that the HD-600 isn't veiled. However, for revealing underlying differences in equipment, the R10 will show me something in seconds that it could take hours or days to discern using the HD-600, or even the HP-1. That doesn't translate to "veiled" though. The HD-600 is a perfect match for the Supra SET amp, and I've been rediscovering just how good it is over the last week or so.