[tigger]

What is your choice of headphone which most readily highlights the differences between headphone amplifiers?

 

[CRESCENDOPOWER]

Sennheiser HD-600s - You better believe it!

 

[Vertigo-1]

The Sony MDR-R10. I'm sure you saw that one coming from a mile away.

I've had the hardest time telling differences between amps with the modern day Grados.

 

[elnero]

I don't know if I agree with the 600's being the best to show difference in heaphone amps. From my experiences with the 580's I would have to say they change dramatically with different associated equipment but I don't know if it's actually showing the differences in the equipment or that the headphones are just coming into their own.

For example a better amp (match) may help with the "veil". Is this showing differences in the amp? No. The amp didn't have the veil it just helped lift it. I think most would agree that the stock 580/600's are decent headphones but do require a lot of tweaking to sound their best.

IMO my W100's are far more transparent than the 580's were. I'm not trying to "fix" the W100's sound with better equipment, but I am trying to improve my own musical experience through upgrades to the gear earlier in the chain. According to Blightly the W1000's surpass the W100's in transparency by a good margin so I would think that generally speaking the W1000's would be one of the better headphones for showing differences in associated equipment.

That said, you also have to remember that there is a certain amount of synergy happening between the headphone and amp. A good amount of tube amps don't seem to work well with low impedance headphones so using a W1000 to compare them wouldn't work as well as a higher impedance can might.

Just my .02 cents worth, and of course be Canadian ain't worth jack ****.

 

[CRESCENDOPOWER]

First off, who said the HD-600s are veiled? With the equipment listed in your profile you certainly have no grounds to call the HD-600s veiled. And, personally I feel that just because other phones are ridiculously bright, forward, and thin sounding certainly doesn't make them more transparent in relation to the HD-600s. See it's my opinion that no pair of headphones is perfectly transparent no matter what the cost, and just because you think your pair of phones is better certainly doesn't mean they can catch the sound signature of an amp better. You can send me any headphone amp in this world, and I could write a book on its sonic signature using the HD-600s, and a good source. Now, with some of the lower impedance phones I might just have problem.
I guess I'm off to Audio Cubes to buy a real headphone to tell me that my RKV is rolled off on top.

 

[elnero]

Quote:

Originally posted by CRESCENDOPOWER First off, who said the HD-600s are veiled?

That's just about the silliest thing I've ever read. Ask around, there are plenty of people other than me that find the 580/600's veiled regardless of associated equipment. Some people have reported being able to get rid of it with certain combo's but it is generally a trait of the 580/600's. That's a fact, get over it.

Quote:

Originally posted by CRESCENDOPOWER With the equipment listed in your profile you certainly have no grounds to call the HD-600s veiled.

There goes that elitist attitude rearing it's ugly head at Head-Fi again. Unless you own some of the best equipment out there your not entitled to an opinion on anything. (unless of course you agree with the elitists, then you can say whatever you want. Who ever heard of someone with my quality of gear being slammed for saying the HD580/600's are wonderful?). Who the hell do you think you are to tell me what I can and can't hear! I have every right to say what I heard. My equipment may not be the best but it's probably more indicative of the norm. I know what I heard and I also have eyes and am able to read other people's posts that have come to the same conclusions as I have.

Quote:

Originally posted by CRESCENDOPOWER See it's my opinion that no pair of headphones is perfectly transparent no matter what the cost, and just because you think your pair of phones is better certainly doesn't mean they can catch the sound signature of an amp better.

Your entitled to your opinion as am I. I never said anything about there being a perfectly transparent headphone only that I find my W100's more transparent than the 580's I owned and, based on some other research, the W1000's may be even more transparent. I'm sure there are probably even better choices than those. Why the need for such sarcasm???

You damn HD580/600 owners are like cult fanatics. How dare anyone say anything bad about them. You always have to find excuses for them like "it's your amp" or "it's your source." Give me a break, my W100's sound like twice the headphone the 580's did in my system. That's my opinion, I'm well aware that others don't like the W100's and may prefer the 580/600's in the same setup. I don't feel it necessary to attack them, that's their opinion and they're entitled to it and I respect it. If you don't agree with me that's fine but there's no need to be such a dick about it.

FWIW, I'm not saying the 580/600's are a bad headphone, just that IMO there are probably better headphones to show differences in amps. In my experience changing things up with the 580/600's showed more differences in the headphone than the amp. Another example, if a certain amp smooths out the mid bass hump I heard (which is well documented by others as well), does that mean the amp actually has better bass or is it just a better match for the 580/600's? How will the amp perform with a headphone that has a flatter freq. response through the mid bass?

 

[Hirsch]

What vertigo-1 said

The R10 has much higher resolution than any other dynamic headphone I've heard.

 

[bangraman]

Wahahaha... Even the most innocuous comment sparks a jihad!

HD600 is good for amp comparison but only if the amp will power them properly in the first place. I could hear the veil incidentally on all sorts of amps. The W1000 would also be a good candidate.
But really the best phone for amp comparison that you can get, is whatever phone you have that you know inside out

 

[tigger]

Quote:

Originally posted by bangraman HD600 is good for amp comparison but only if the amp will power them properly in the first place. I could hear the veil incidentally on all sorts of amps. The W1000 would also be a good candidate. But really the best phone for amp comparison that you can get, is whatever phone you have that you know inside out

Very good point bangraman, using the headphone you are most familiar with. I do believe my AKG K501 will reveal the "sonic signature" of most amplifiers.
As for the HD600/580 veil. Sorry, but in my opinion it does exist in the standard HD600. Listening for minute detail with the AKG K501 just requires less effort.
Where the problem exists is knowing whether amp "A" is better at driving headphone "B" because of a better match. Therefore the best all round solution may be to audition the said amplifier with perhaps 3 different headphones of low, medium and high impedence.

 

[CRESCENDOPOWER]

That's just about the silliest thing I've ever read. Ask around, there are plenty of people other than me that find the 580/600's veiled regardless of associated equipment. Some people have reported being able to get rid of it with certain combo's but it is generally a trait of the 580/600's. That's a fact, get over it.

See, that's the part you don't understand all headphones have certain traits, and just because a phone sounds brighter, faster, and clearer with lower level equipment certainly doesn't qualify it as having the ability to better tell the differences between amps. Oh, and by the way, not everyone on this site thinks the HD-600s are veiled. If you want facts, the facts are the better the equipment you through at the HD-600s the better they sound, and the fact that you think your phones will give you a better opinion of what an amps sound like is probably the silliest thing I've every read, and if anything it will be the other way around, because of the HD-600s high impedance.
If all these ridiculous low impedance extremely bright phones that are comming from Audio Cubes are so "trasnsparent" why is everyone buying the RKV, and impedancer to hook up to them? Wouldn't they buy a more "neutral, or transparent" amp for them?
You know, an amp that would tell them more of the "truth".

 

[markl]

I believe the HD600s are one of the least revealing of equipment upgrades of the major phones in its class. The load they present to the amplifier, plus the laid-back, detached wooly sonic signature I thinks keeps them at a distance from upstream components more than lower-impedence and more transparent headphones such as the CD3K. Yes, I absolutely do believe that the HD600 will show you differences in upstream components, no doubt about it (I've heard it myself many times over, even cable swaps are easily detectable) but the question is which phones reveals the *most*?

That would have to be the Sony R10s hands down. They are so transparent, that they change more chameleonlike when you swap upstream components. They are able to adapt and mold to the new component in a way the HD600 does not. They are like a direct connection into whatever system they are plugged, you can really hear everything.

In lieu of an R10, of the cans I've heard, next would be the CD3000, then the ATH W2002 (and presumably the W1000).

Mark

 

[jopi]

AKG K1000.

 

[markl]

Quote:

If all these ridiculous low impedance extremely bright phones that are comming from Audio Cubes are so "trasnsparent" why is everyone buying the RKV, and impedancer to hook up to them? Wouldn't they buy a more "neutral, or transparent" amp for them?

He he. You make it sound like we have a foreign invasion from the sinister pushers at AudioCubes with their crack-coccaine low-impedence phones!

I think people are attracted to the RKV because it's a great amp. I reject this whole idea that solid state amps are somehow by definition "neutral". Until the day comes when music travels through the air straight to our ears with no equipment, no components, no wires, and no parts at all in the signal path, every kind of amp will have a sonic signature, even solid state.

Mark

 

[CRESCENDOPOWER]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl He he. You make it sound like we have a foreign invasion from the sinister pushers at AudioCubes with their crack-coccaine low-impedence phones! I think people are attracted to the RKV because it's a great amp. I reject this whole idea that solid state amps are somehow by definition "neutral". Until the day comes when music travels through the air straight to our ears with no equipment, no components, no wires, and no parts at all in the signal path, every kind of amp will have a sonic signature, even solid state. Mark

Markl,


In the reviews I have read about the RKV there has been a mentioning of this amp being rolled off on top. Personally, I think that is a serious understatement, so much to the point that I was ready to sell it after 3 weeks of listening. I also find myself blasting the music with the RKV trying to find detail that is there with other amps. So, my questions are, why is so easy for me to tell the differences between tube swaps, cable changes, amp changes, and source changes with the wooly sounding HD-600s? And, why is there such a moment on these boards matching the CD-3000s with the RKV beings that it is ridiculously rolled off? Are Grados the epitome of headphones, because they match up with rolled off amps also? The point I am trying to make is there is no such thing as the truth in audio just opinion.

 

[markl]

Very interesting about your finding with the RKV. Did you ever post a review or comments anywhere before? I may have missed them.

I myself haven't heard the RKV, only read posts from happy owners. With that many people that like it, I'm sure it has a lot going for it, but those positive attributes maybe weren't the package you wanted.
Quote:

why is so easy for me to tell the differences between tube swaps, cable changes, amp changes, and source changes with the wooly sounding HD-600s?

I don't know who you are addressing here because above you'll see I myself said:
Quote:

Yes, I absolutely do believe that the HD600 will show you differences in upstream components, no doubt about it (I've heard it myself many times over, even cable swaps are easily detectable) but the question is which phones reveals the *most*?

We can debate all day whether the CD3000 or ATHW2002 are "too bright" or whether the HD600 is "too dark", and have to agree to disagree. No big deal, rock on!

Mark