[tunes]

i̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶a̶ ̶w̶a̶y̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶p̶r̶e̶v̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶v̶o̶l̶u̶m̶e̶ ̶w̶h̶e̶e̶l̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶a̶c̶c̶i̶d̶e̶n̶t̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶s̶c̶r̶o̶l̶l̶e̶d̶?̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶n̶k̶s̶

Fiddle around the manual, I found they considerately added a volume lock function in the setting. Just search and enable it. It locks the Volume wheel when the screen is off

i̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶a̶ ̶w̶a̶y̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶p̶r̶e̶v̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶v̶o̶l̶u̶m̶e̶ ̶w̶h̶e̶e̶l̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶a̶c̶c̶i̶d̶e̶n̶t̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶s̶c̶r̶o̶l̶l̶e̶d̶?̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶n̶k̶s̶

Fiddle around the manual, I found they considerately added a volume lock function in the setting. Just search and enable it. It locks the Volume wheel when the screen is off

Does the Onkyo DP-X1have either USB or optical TOSLINK out to enable use as a transport for the CHORD HUGO2 and be able to stream bit perfect TIDAL and play downloads from TIDAL offline?

 

[Asspirin]

Two of the things many people are not aware of is that if you're not using the balanced output, you're not using both DACs and both amps. Also, the hardware is only accessible through the native music player, third-party apps do not use the saber DAC , rather the standard android API for snapdragon processors to do the digital to analog conversion, rather the standard android API for snapdragon processors to do the digital to analog conversion. I.e. you're just using a phone to play your music.

Poweramp can be tweaked to use the hardware decoding but you have to be rooted. None of the streaming services do.

Can you back that claim up? I'm pretty sure the Snapdragon DAC is overridden no matter what kind of audio is being played.

 

[fordski]

i̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶a̶ ̶w̶a̶y̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶p̶r̶e̶v̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶v̶o̶l̶u̶m̶e̶ ̶w̶h̶e̶e̶l̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶a̶c̶c̶i̶d̶e̶n̶t̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶s̶c̶r̶o̶l̶l̶e̶d̶?̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶n̶k̶s̶

Fiddle around the manual, I found they considerately added a volume lock function in the setting. Just search and enable it. It locks the Volume wheel when the screen is off

Can you back that claim up? I'm pretty sure the Snapdragon DAC is overridden no matter what kind of audio is being played.

This subject has been discussed a few times earlier in the thread. There was a quote from an Onkyo rep that bsaically said only the Onkyo music app has been proven to work with the DACs and 3rd party apps had not been tested and therefore it could not be conclusively determined if they worked with the sabre DACs or not. With respect to the 2 DACs being used I recall Onkyo definitely stated that both DACs are working in both balanced and single ended mode. This is my recall of the info posted earlier.

 

[snafu1]

Poweramp can be tweaked to use the hardware decoding but you have to be rooted. None of the streaming services do.

.

Can you post any more info on how Poweramp is "tweaked" to be able to do hardware decoding? I understand how to root the DP-X1, but I haven't been able to find any relevant info on Poweramp.

 

[Asspirin]

This subject has been discussed a few times earlier in the thread. There was a quote from an Onkyo rep that bsaically said only the Onkyo music app has been proven to work with the DACs and 3rd party apps had not been tested and therefore it could not be conclusively determined if they worked with the sabre DACs or not. With respect to the 2 DACs being used I recall Onkyo definitely stated that both DACs are working in both balanced and single ended mode. This is my recall of the info posted earlier.

Ok, I am no expert in this technical stuff, so my amateur thoughts on this are basically:

The lineout is straightly connected to the amp. The DAC is straightly connected to the amp. According to your claims, when playing spotify, the Snapdragon would decode the digital signal. And then what? Send the analog signal to the DACs? Unlikely. Send the analog signal to the amps? Onkyo made two different audio routes? Unlikely.

I have read about the issue in the LG V10 thread (which has been fixed by software btw). But that's a smartphone. Its headphone jack has to be fed by two audio routes (DAC & Snapdragon) because of telephony. But a standalone player? I don't think so. Where does the balanced signal come from when listening to Spotify?

And last but not least: Why the hell does Spotify on my XDP-300R (basically the same device) sound better than with my LG G5 + B&O module (which apparently works with Spotify)? Either the Snapdragon DAC is pretty darn good or Spotify works with the ESS DAC. The A/B test with 320k MP3s with stock player and Spotify highest quality made absolutely no audible difference.

I'm open about new suggestions and positions to this topic, I'm just posting what I'm thinking and what I've heard!

 

[Surf Monkey]

Ok, I am no expert in this technical stuff, so my amateur thoughts on this are basically:

The lineout is straightly connected to the amp. The DAC is straightly connected to the amp. According to your claims, when playing spotify, the Snapdragon would decode the digital signal. And then what? Send the analog signal to the DACs? Unlikely. Send the analog signal to the amps? Onkyo made two different audio routes? Unlikely.

I have read about the issue in the LG V10 thread (which has been fixed by software btw). But that's a smartphone. Its headphone jack has to be fed by two audio routes (DAC & Snapdragon) because of telephony. But a standalone player? I don't think so. Where does the balanced signal come from when listening to Spotify?

And last but not least: Why the hell does Spotify on my XDP-300R (basically the same device) sound better than with my LG G5 + B&O module (which apparently works with Spotify)? Either the Snapdragon DAC is pretty darn good or Spotify works with the ESS DAC. The A/B test with 320k MP3s with stock player and Spotify highest quality made absolutely no audible difference.

I'm open about new suggestions and positions to this topic, I'm just posting what I'm thinking and what I've heard!

Makes a lot of sense to me. I'd like to see some kind of detailed explanation of how the device produces sound without using the internal DAC(s), particularly in balanced output.

 

[enri]

I think that is the Variable Volume Limiter Setting. There is also a Variable Line Out setting, but that I don't think is at play here.

If you see that Variable Line Out settings in your Onkyo, this is the settings you need to unlock the sound volume. This is a settings for EU/HK version. In my Jap X1A, I only have the Vol Limiter - which is just a slider and I have this always set at right (e.t.c no limit). I don't know if you are having issue because your headphone is hard to drive, but toggling the Variable Line Out will make at least 30% louder on IEM

 

[enri]

Ok, I am no expert in this technical stuff, so my amateur thoughts on this are basically:

.....
I'm open about new suggestions and positions to this topic, I'm just posting what I'm thinking and what I've heard!

To add that, the issue with 3rd party app is they do not know our DAP have internal amp, so they resample like standard phone - in Neutron, I have no choice not to use resampler; in Poweramp, the high-res settings is there but still not usable in current alpha version (unless have it rooted, and pretend to be Meizu phone).

This is the previous reference: https://www.head-fi.org/f/posts/12254387 and https://www.head-fi.org/f/posts/13264879
I also followed the advise to try UAPP and with it set to sample rate 96000, the sound is a lot better.

I am just supplementing information. The best thing I look forward is Poweramp to complete the Hi-Res support so that other player get pressure to improve. Posting to Foobar2000 and Neutron forum to ask for Hi-Res have no response~

 

[linux4ever]

Does the Onkyo DP-X1have either USB or optical TOSLINK out to enable use as a transport for the CHORD HUGO2 and be able to stream bit perfect TIDAL and play downloads from TIDAL offline?

I use my dp-x1 USB audio out to pair it with Chord Mojo. I don't think dp-x1 has a optical out.

 

[linux4ever]

I just pulled the trigger on the DP-X1A. Having researched all the DAPs in the 500-1,000 range this seemed to be the one that suits my needs. Dual Sabres, balanced output, plenty of storage etc.

This will be my first dedicated hi-res player, so I'm excited. I'll be pairing it with my Campfire Audio Jupiters.

I've dp-x1 paired with Campfire Audio Jupiter. The black background that dp-x1 provides is so awesome that Campfire Audio Jupiter goes to party with it. It's a very good pair up.

 

[Evilcartman]

Ok, I am no expert in this technical stuff, so my amateur thoughts on this are basically:

The lineout is straightly connected to the amp. The DAC is straightly connected to the amp. According to your claims, when playing spotify, the Snapdragon would decode the digital signal. And then what? Send the analog signal to the DACs? Unlikely. Send the analog signal to the amps? Onkyo made two different audio routes? Unlikely.

I have read about the issue in the LG V10 thread (which has been fixed by software btw). But that's a smartphone. Its headphone jack has to be fed by two audio routes (DAC & Snapdragon) because of telephony. But a standalone player? I don't think so. Where does the balanced signal come from when listening to Spotify?

And last but not least: Why the hell does Spotify on my XDP-300R (basically the same device) sound better than with my LG G5 + B&O module (which apparently works with Spotify)? Either the Snapdragon DAC is pretty darn good or Spotify works with the ESS DAC. The A/B test with 320k MP3s with stock player and Spotify highest quality made absolutely no audible difference.

I'm open about new suggestions and positions to this topic, I'm just posting what I'm thinking and what I've heard!

The line out is NOT connected directly to the amp etc. Computers are not like stereos. They are much more complex.
Every smartphone processor has its own built in audio instruction set i.e software dac. This will be always be used unless an apps is explicitly told to use an external chip, and that app has instructions on how to so. Look up the stats for any Snapdragon series chip.

https://www.qualcomm.com/products/snapdragon/processors/835

Most apps don't even use the full capabilities of even the built in DAC , they only use the Android standard instruction set for decoding.

https://android.gadgethacks.com/how...gon-powered-phone-for-superior-audio-0177069/

This Android soft dac isn't the second pipeline, it is the FIRST. Our hardware that we pay for is the second pipeline and will not be used unless explicitly told to in the code.

I am a tech guy and this makes total sense. No hardware can be used unless 1) it conforms to a pre exisiting standard ( the Sabre dac does not, it needs it's own API) , or 2) the code was written specifically for it. With this in mind, ask yourself how could a Spotify app, written BEFORE this player even came out, use the DAC? It cannot.

The authors of Poweramp and Neutron themselves explicitly state that the external DACs in the Onkyo/Pioneer are NOT being used. The Poweramp app even indicates "software decoding" in its settings when it shows you the active outputs. There is no controversy to this, only people who for whatever reason do not believe it. In the case of Poweramp, the author put out an alpha release specifically written for the Onkyo/Pioneer DAC. Every model of smartphone that uses non-standard hardware has to be coded separately. he even has an online webform for making these requests..

If it sounds just as good, then it is not a problem. But my player did not sound nearly as good as the one I was replacing until I I rooted and tweaked it.

 

[Asspirin]

. With this in mind, ask yourself how could a Spotify app, written BEFORE this player even came out, use the DAC? It cannot..

Software updates?

But first of all, thank you for your effort to give us a proper technical insight into that stuff!

Moaaarr stupid questions:

-How is the balanced signal produced when using Spotify?

-Most external USB DACs based on the ESS Sabre support Spotify. Why are the internal DACs troublesome then?

-For the LG V10, which is the precedent for the issue we're discussing here, there is a small software fix that forces every audio signal through the HiFi DAC. That was two years ago. Android DAP manufacturers should have that in check by now, don't they?

-Reportedly, the LG V20 even has some possibility to test if apps work with the Quad DAC (http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/lg-user-group-224/lg-v20-5427630-117.html) and Spotify seems to work well with those

 

[Evilcartman]

Software updates?

But first of all, thank you for your effort to give us a proper technical insight into that stuff!

Moaaarr stupid questions:

-How is the balanced signal produced when using Spotify?

-Most external USB DACs based on the ESS Sabre support Spotify. Why are the internal DACs troublesome then?

-For the LG V10, which is the precedent for the issue we're discussing here, there is a small software fix that forces every audio signal through the HiFi DAC. That was two years ago. Android DAP manufacturers should have that in check by now, don't they?

-Reportedly, the LG V20 even has some possibility to test if apps work with the Quad DAC (http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/lg-user-group-224/lg-v20-5427630-117.html) and Spotify seems to work well with those

Mainly because LG has the market share to force software makers to accommodate it's products and many more engineers working on their flagship phone vs. an afterthought niche product. It is are not the only phone with better a DAC but LG's is the only one that got everyone on board.


External DACs are a different animal entirely, the output has been standardized. Though this could be implemented internally ( like plugging an car adapter into an outlet and then pluggin a power inverted to that DC current to make it AC again), it probably takes another chip-set ( that would be the usb digital sound interface ) and maybe board board to do it.Internally it could cause jitter and a host ( no pun) of other problems you get from running a usb DAC. I doubt any manufacturer would think to add an internal host to make it broadly compatible. Their goal is to only make it work with their player after all. Though I think in the case of LG, they kind of did something like this, so as not to need every app to be updated. The standardization can be on the phone end or the app end. In the case of Poweramp, it is in the app for us.


It is quite possible a firmware update could do the same thing for us, it would need only contain the api to the dac and instructions to pipe everything though it. But not likely Onkyo/Pioneer would go out on a limb to support 3rd party apps. The money and market share isn't in it for them. The entire DAP market is pretty tiny. Is isn't out of the question that someone could write an Android app to do it, like in the case of the Qualcom DAC. Again, it is a matter of market share and profitability.

And remember LG had to release a fix, even they did not have it correct coming out of the box.

Balanced signals are the AMP not the DAC. Presumably all sounds go though the Amp as it is an analog signal, no other hardware is needed. Both amps are only engaged with the balanced output. Since the opamp in the DPX1 is of better quality, that explains why overall the sound is good, even with the 3rd party apps using software decoding. In the DP-X1 I find the software decoding noisy, possibly interference, and that is why the DAC is in a separate board. Using very good hard to drive headphones though ( HiFiMan HE-6 and Senn HD800). Usually I can perceive differences in DACs mostly with lossless files, except when there is noise. I suspect most people cannot differentiate any DACs. That is why only the cursed few are forced to spend $$$ on good audio gear. Most cannot hear the difference. I I could be happy with a Galaxy and factory earbuds, I would.

 

[NickL33]

Mainly because LG has the market share to force software makers to accommodate it's products and many more engineers working on their flagship phone vs. an afterthought niche product. It is are not the only phone with better a DAC but LG's is the only one that got everyone on board.


External DACs are a different animal entirely, the output has been standardized. Though this could be implemented internally ( like plugging an car adapter into an outlet and then pluggin a power inverted to that DC current to make it AC again), it probably takes another chip-set ( that would be the usb digital sound interface ) and maybe board board to do it.Internally it could cause jitter and a host ( no pun) of other problems you get from running a usb DAC. I doubt any manufacturer would think to add an internal host to make it broadly compatible. Their goal is to only make it work with their player after all. Though I think in the case of LG, they kind of did something like this, so as not to need every app to be updated. The standardization can be on the phone end or the app end. In the case of Poweramp, it is in the app for us.


It is quite possible a firmware update could do the same thing for us, it would need only contain the api to the dac and instructions to pipe everything though it. But not likely Onkyo/Pioneer would go out on a limb to support 3rd party apps. The money and market share isn't in it for them. The entire DAP market is pretty tiny. Is isn't out of the question that someone could write an Android app to do it, like in the case of the Qualcom DAC. Again, it is a matter of market share and profitability.

And remember LG had to release a fix, even they did not have it correct coming out of the box.

Balanced signals are the AMP not the DAC. Presumably all sounds go though the Amp as it is an analog signal, no other hardware is needed. Both amps are only engaged with the balanced output. Since the opamp in the DPX1 is of better quality, that explains why overall the sound is good, even with the 3rd party apps using software decoding. In the DP-X1 I find the software decoding noisy, possibly interference, and that is why the DAC is in a separate board. Using very good hard to drive headphones though ( HiFiMan HE-6 and Senn HD800). Usually I can perceive differences in DACs mostly with lossless files, except when there is noise. I suspect most people cannot differentiate any DACs. That is why only the cursed few are forced to spend $$$ on good audio gear. Most cannot hear the difference. I I could be happy with a Galaxy and factory earbuds, I would.

I am sorrry but none of this makes sense...
if fiio x5iii dac which is ak4490... they confirm all audio signal will process through their dac even from 3rd party...

I dont see why Onkyo unable to do that?

 

[NickL33]

Indeed, a clip from an email thread:

Also per this earlier post... Onkyo did mention dac will be used on 3rd party apps but not in dual from...