ONKYO DP-X1 | Dual Sabre Dacs | Balanced | Sabre BTL Amp | MQA | DSD 256 | Android 5 |

May 3, 2016 at 12:52 PM Post #7,906 of 16,375
There will be lot of machines in the gym which will cause RFI noises when using Bluetooth?!

 
I've used various Bluetooth headphones via my various iPhones for years, and with the Blue-Buds X specifically (for the last two years-ish) and NEVER had any issue with drop outs or interference at the gym.  And that's been the case regardless of whether I have had the phone in a pocket (how I usually use it), or sitting on the console of the machine I'm using.
 
Either my DPX1 has faulty Bluetooth hardware, which I doubt, or it's just a poor implementation that didn't give proper attention to antenna placement etc; either way, it's not useable as it is.
 
May 3, 2016 at 3:24 PM Post #7,907 of 16,375
Note that the distortion I'm referring to (noise or grittiness might be a better description) was only on the fade-in or fade-out of tracks.

The distortion I heard was only via the standard TIDAL client application (that you download from the Google Play store), and only via the internal DAC/amp.

If I played the standard TIDAL client through a Mojo instead, while you get forced up-sampling from the Android Audio subsystem, this distortion was not present.  Playing through UAPP either using the internall DAC/amp or via the Mojo didn't exhibit this distortion either.

I've only tried three music players so far: 1) the native Onkyo Music app, 2) UAPP and 3) the standard TIDAL client, so I can't say if this distortion occurs with other players.  If I get a chance, before I package the unit back up to return it, I'll test with Spotify as well.



Native TIDAL is limited to playing through the Android Audio subsystem, which means it's using Androids re-sampling, whether you want it or not.

The "Music" app on the DPX1 bypasses that completely - though, of course, that can only play locally mounted files.

And yes, they sound pretty different - bypassing the Android re-sampling is definitely beneficial.



I find Tidal (lossless) playback very good, although SQ is not as good as my own lossless files played on the stock music app.

There is a small amount of distortion present on third-party app output. It's only directly audible at very low volume, but I suspect this, and other 'features' of the Android system affect sound quality.

I also get very brief glitches or dropouts during playback of stored Tidal tracks. This is very random - I can listen for a long time without it happening on some occasions, other occasions it happens a couple of times every minute. I don't know if it's related to the reading of the SD cards or the actual playback within the app.

Overall I'm happy with it while hoping that future firmware and/or app updates will make it better (It will be interesting to see if the move to MQA format makes any difference when it happens). If I find myself listening to music repeatedly I always buy a physical copy of it so my most important music is played through the music app. If Tidal were my principle or only requirement, then I might be more unhappy with its performance currently.

Thanks both of you explaining in so details.
If in my case, I use tidal as my major source and CD as second. Will a lower level of DAP more suitable for me? Since the tidal app is not providing the best quality when comparing the same lossless file by stock music player. Maybe 100R? or any suggestion? I am not a very hardcore head fi person but I still want the best in this price range.
I am really appreciated for all of your help!
 
May 3, 2016 at 4:50 PM Post #7,909 of 16,375
   
I find Tidal (lossless) playback very good, although SQ is not as good as my own lossless files played on the stock music app.
 
There is a small amount of distortion present on third-party app output. It's only directly audible at very low volume, but I suspect this, and other 'features' of the Android system affect sound quality.
 
I also get very brief glitches or dropouts during playback of stored Tidal tracks. This is very random - I can listen for a long time without it happening on some occasions, other occasions it happens a couple of times every minute. I don't know if it's related to the reading of the SD cards or the actual playback within the app.
 
Overall I'm happy with it while hoping that future firmware and/or app updates will make it better (It will be interesting to see if the move to MQA format makes any difference when it happens). If I find myself listening to music repeatedly I always buy a physical copy of it so my most important music is played through the music app. If Tidal were my principle or only requirement, then I might be more unhappy with its performance currently.

 
There's something called Deezer that sounds better than Tidal, even from my LG V10 (ES9018 DAC). It sounds as good as PowerAmp Alpha with FLAC material. Worth giving it a free trial.
 
May 3, 2016 at 4:51 PM Post #7,910 of 16,375
Hey I have a question. Do both Dac and amps act in unison only in balanced mode or both balanced and 3.5 output? Thanks

Both DACs and amps are only in balanced mode 2.5mm input.
 
May 3, 2016 at 4:52 PM Post #7,911 of 16,375
None, certainly not audible. Now to add to this comment, the idea that the balanced design yields a difference isn't what I'm talking about, but that would be due to more power not the extra DAC chip, and possibly a little cleaner power with ACG (although I'm really not sure the noise floor was ever audible anyway even in SE).

That may be true for most Dac chips but not Ess. When running in mono mode their chips have a much better Snr/Dnr .. measurable and well documented. E.g. for the standard ess9018 that's a pretty serious 6db diff .. see http://www.esstech.com/files/1414/4095/2154/ES9018S_PB_v1.7_140916.pdf.

Whether that diff is audible in any particular implementation, that's of course another question entirely.
 
May 3, 2016 at 4:56 PM Post #7,912 of 16,375
Thanks both of you explaining in so details.
If in my case, I use tidal as my major source and CD as second. Will a lower level of DAP more suitable for me? Since the tidal app is not providing the best quality when comparing the same lossless file by stock music player. Maybe 100R? or any suggestion? I am not a very hardcore head fi person but I still want the best in this price range.
I am really appreciated for all of your help!

Dude, even a decent sounding phone will likely bring you a significant level of sound quality like the DP-X1. If you already have a really good sounding phone, and there are quite a few of them, that might get you virtually identical performance with Tidal, maybe even better in terms of WiFi and Bluetooth. My G3 for instance has seemingly better wifi and BT as compared with the DP-X1. The differences in DACs aren't near as large as people imagine. I'll put money on it that in blind listening tests, with SPL matching a decent phone will be pretty darn hard to tell from most DAPs. I'm not saying there will be no differences, just not nearly as big as people think. The LG V10 is a very nice sounding phone for one, as is the G3.
 
May 3, 2016 at 4:57 PM Post #7,913 of 16,375
Whether that diff is audible in any particular implementation, that's of course another question entirely.

That is my point, is it audible under normal use?
 
May 3, 2016 at 5:00 PM Post #7,914 of 16,375
   
My feeling only, it is better than AK240 and slightly weaker than AK240SS in term of SQ.  But it is a personal preference.

this is great achievement of Onkyo then. There was TEAC HA-P90SD released at the end of 2014 with Burr Brown PCM1795 chip which is cheap edition of Burr-Brown PCM1794A installed in Acoustic Research M2 Music Player which claims to deliver fantastic sound and the price is above 1'000 US$. Do you think that Dual ESS Sabre ES9018K2M DACs can beat Burr-Brown PCM1794A sound quality? Also ONKYO DAC-HA300 looks exactly as TEAC HA-P90SD and uses the same chipset, does it mean that TEAC also will issue the same player as DP-X1 released by Onkyo?
 
May 3, 2016 at 5:08 PM Post #7,916 of 16,375
  this is great achievement of Onkyo then. There was TEAC HA-P90SD released at the end of 2014 with Burr Brown PCM1795 chip which is cheap edition of Burr-Brown PCM1794A installed in Acoustic Research M2 Music Player which claims to deliver fantastic sound and the price is above 1'000 US$. Do you think that Dual ESS Sabre ES9018K2M DACs can beat Burr-Brown PCM1794A sound quality? Also ONKYO DAC-HA300 looks exactly as TEAC HA-P90SD and uses the same chipset, does it mean that TEAC also will issue the same player as DP-X1 released by Onkyo?

 
If the difference is not audible for just 1 ESS9018 DAC (LG V10, etc), as someone told here, definitely not. It's close, but at least Burr-Brown 1792A has better timbre, certain instruments sound more realistic and vivid. More true-to-life. Need critical A/B to notice the difference though, but the Burr-Brown gives me a higher level of satisfaction.
 
May 3, 2016 at 5:10 PM Post #7,917 of 16,375
The answer to that question can only be found in the ear of the beholder.
I guess the safe bet would be on 'no'. But I wont bet more than a few beers
smily_headphones1.gif

Well, even if you lost that bet to me mate, I would be buying the next few rounds, so everyone's a winner.
 
May 3, 2016 at 5:59 PM Post #7,919 of 16,375
Following up from my first post on the Onkyo DPX1 yesterday ... including a picture (for provenance, mostly):
 


Summary:
 
If you're looking at the DPX1 to use as a DAP, driving headphones directly from one of its two outputs, playing files from local storage using the built-in "Music" application, then it is an excellent little device with very high sound quality, solid battery life*, a fast and fluid user experience (at least with the 400+GB/12,000 files I tested with).
 
Used this way, via it's internal DAC and headphone amp, the sound quality is superb and easily bests the native outputs from an iPhone 6S (not surprising, really), my AK120 and an AK240 I was playing with at work yesterday.
 
So, as a straightforward DAP used as-is, I think it's well worth consideration and is unlikely to disappoint.  I'd recommended it, happily, for that use case - with the caveat that the headphone sockets really do seem rather insubstantial.
 
However, if you want to use Bluetooth headphones or an external DAC or wanting it to stream TIDAL or Spotify, or play music via other player applications on Android (via Google Play), then there are some significant issues you should be aware of.
 
Bluetooth:
 
I won't belabor the point; you can read my original post for more details here, but in short, beyond the normal Android fussiness with Bluetooth, this thing exhibits continuous, repeatable, drop outs in playback (tested with several different Bluetooth headphones now, including Blue-Buds X and Momentum 2.0 Wireless Over-Ear).  This issue is bad enough that I cannot listen to music via Bluetooth with the DPX1 in either my pant or shirt pockets (nor when I tried just holding it in my hand).  Even in my shirt breast pocket, at a range of about a foot, I get reduced audio quality and just turning my head results in the connection dropping completely until I turn it back.
 
It worked fine with the DPX1 on a desk with unobstructed line of sight to the headphone receiver, but range was maybe a third (at best) what I see from my iPhone, before it would start dropping out.
 
Distortion w/ Third Party Music Players:
 
Using third party music players results in audible distortion in quiet portions of the music.  This is most notable during the fade-out (or fade-in) of a track, but it's come up in classical pieces with quiet passages and in some contemporary music where the artists drops to a whisper for part of a song (etc.).  It's quite obvious and not something you're likely to miss and seriously spoils the viability of this player for use with third party players (the major draw, as I see it, for having an Android based DAP in the first place).
 
I've tested this with the standard TIDAL, Spotify, Amazon Music and Apple Music applications, all playing through the internal DAC/amp, and the distortion is present in all cases.  It didn't matter if I was streaming the file, or playing a locally cached copy.
 
I did not hear this same distortion when playing those applications via an external DAC, although that output is still subject to Android's native re-sampling.
 
Using External DACs:
 
This works fine, but unless you use something like USB Audio Player Pro, you're still subject to Android's native re-sampling which I can't say does sound quality any favors.  If you do opt to use a player that bypasses the Android Audio subsystem then you'll get to enjoy the issues I found (see my original post) in switching between players and getting them to release/recognize the DAC.
 
Most of my testing here was using a Chord Mojo.  I would say that the Mojo yields higher quality output that the built-in DAC/amp, and drives more challenging headphones with more authority.  
 
One of my hopes was to use the DPX1 as a transport with the Mojo for when not having to travel light (and when traveling light to use just the DPX1).  I found the messing around that was periodically necessary to switch between music players, with the hard-crashes (occasionally requiring a power-off/on cycle), meant I was sometimes spending several minutes getting my music playing ... often at the cost of as much as 10% battery life*!
 
Avoiding Android's Up-sampling:
 
If you're using an external DAC, you can do this with UAPP, and you'll want to as there is a quite noticeable improvement when you bypass it.  UAPP can stream directly from TIDAL now, and while the interface isn't as nice as the standard TIDAL client, it's worth it from a quality perspective.
 
Battery Life:
 
Battery life was excellent when playing music with the built-in player application, and even with streaming TIDAL over a solid WiFi connection I was seeing about 5-6% depletion per hour (sometimes as much as 10% if I was using more demanding headphones).  The claimed 16 hours in standalone mode is easily attained - though that only works with the built-in player also.
 
*However, doing anything with the device other than playing music causes the battery level to drop very rapidly.  In one case I spent about 5 minutes trying to get the player to release my external DAC from the built-in player and make it available for UAPP, and by the time I'd done that I'd lost 10% of my battery.
 
Final Thoughts:
 
Great as a standalone DAP, used as-is, with no third-party apps, no Bluetooth and no external DAC.  Need one of those items and there are issues that, even individually, seem to be well out of place in any dedicated player.  And, in combination, render the player unusable for me for my use cases.
 
And, I think this experience confirms that until Android has native support for multiple output sampling rates, with an option to bypass any kind of resampling, it's not something I want anywhere near a dedicated audio player regardless of who makes it or what other issues may exist.
 
For me, just too many issues, with the distortion and Bluetooth range/dropout issues being complete deal killers (I could probably come to live with the funkiness and instability when using external DACs if those other issues were not apparent).  So much promise, but it fails in actual execution.
 
So ... I am returning my DPX1 today.
 
May 3, 2016 at 9:42 PM Post #7,920 of 16,375
Hi Everyone!
 
This is my first post on this site, so please be patient with me while I learn your lingo. 
regular_smile .gif
I am currently looking for a hi-res DAP and I've narrowed down the list to three, with the Onkyo DP-X1 at the top of the list, but I'm wondering whether it is my best option for how I will be using it most of the time. This, hopefully, is where this community comes in.
 
While I do want something portable, for most of the time I am looking to plug my DAP into the back of my receiver. To date I don't use streaming services, though I'm not ruling it out in the future. Up to this point I have been using an iPod Classic 120GB plugged in using a Monster cable. It has done the trick strictly speaking but the audio could be much better and it's annoying and inconvenient to have to convert any music I want to load onto it into wav format. I would also like to be able to play hi-res music. I know that the focus here is on listening to music using headphones but you also seem to be the authority on portable players, hence my post.
 
In case it's relevant, I am using a vintage (or almost!) Harmon Kardon receiver and Kef speakers. I love the sound they are able to put out and I dread the day either dies and I have to purchase something new. In terms of DAPs I am also somewhat concerned about having to purchase a player unseen and untested. Despite living in a major metropolitan area, none of my three top choices are available at a bricks and mortar store to test, or even look at for that matter.
 
After that long-winded lead-up, here are my starting questions:
 
1. I am reading a lot about the necessity of using the balanced output to get the best sound from the DP-X1. Does this apply when listening to it through a receiver? Are there cables available to use it in balanced mode for the receiver and, if so, which ones would be required specifically?
 
2. I have been reading about the various limitations imposed on players using Android. Is this a real concern? To date I have avoided anything Android/Google for my other devices so this has me hesitating, while recognizing that there could be some apps that could potentially make music sound much better so I'm trying to keep an open mind.
 
3. As mentioned, I have been looking at three players with the DP-X1 seemingly the best option on paper, however I'm not sure if this is the case for my primary intended usage. The other players I have been looking at are the AK120II and the Fiio X7. Should I be seriously considering one of these over the DP-X1 in terms of audio quality, functionality with a receiver, and UI?
 
4. In more general terms, what would be some of your recommendations for a music player? I currently use Media Center on my computer but they don't (yet?) have a version for portable devices as far as I can tell.
 
Thank you for any help you can provide!
 

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