On a mission to like jazz
Sep 23, 2016 at 5:20 AM Post #2,043 of 5,027
  Jazz is an awfully small word for a truly vast body of music.  We could start a never-ending dialog as to what is and isn't Jazz.  I find it infinitely easier to simply state what I like and dislike.  

Just to add a bit more to the discussion whether this is jazz or not. Even more so on whether one likes a record or not. With either of the two distinctions, I do not come to a conclusion with Nels Cline's: 'Lovers! I am interested what others think.
 

 
Sep 23, 2016 at 10:22 PM Post #2,044 of 5,027
Been away for a few weeks.  Wow...just to clarify a few points...
 
Yes, of course, jazz shows "need" rock or other artists brought in to simply sell tickets.  From a commercial standpoint..sadly... Jazz is a dying genre so they must have Sting or some other popular artist to bring the folks in and sell tickets.  Sad, but pretty simple to understand.  Classical doesn't need it because THAT genre is a MUCH older wealthier crowd (cost of shows is not price sensitive) and been steady and price is not much of an issue.   For example Antonio Sanchez is the greatest drummer on the planet but his band, "Migration" might be lucky to sell 1500 tickets at any local gig but somebody like Adele will sell 50K?   With 1/20th the talent?  It's wrong and sad as hell.  With a few exceptions, always frustrating that musical recognition has almost nothing to do with talent and is all about "CATCHY APPEAL."  I know it sounds snobbish but it only shows the "dumb" musical mind of most of the public.
 
Sep 24, 2016 at 3:42 AM Post #2,045 of 5,027
Yes, undoubtedly the presence of rock and pop acts is there to bring a younger and more numerous audience, although Sting's audience is aging as well. But we also shouldn't forget that this mix has been at the inception of many jazz festivals. Montreux, Nice and Newport jazz festivals always had jazz and more crowd pleasing acts. We shouldn't be too cynical as well and accept that people and festival organisers think of pop, funk, R&B and rock acts as directly linked to jazz, kind of being the children of it. I'm saying this while acknowledging that the main reason for the presence of these genres in jazz festival is commercial viability.
There's just one sentence I don't agree with and it's this one: "Classical doesn't need it because THAT genre is a MUCH older wealthier crowd (cost of shows is not price sensitive) and been steady and price is not much of an issue." I can't comment on the status and fonctioning of "classical" (i hate that word) music in the USA, but I have lived in France (where I was born), in Australia and I now live in the U.K., and it's been my experience that pop and rock concerts are the most expensive to go to.
I'm always annoyed by people who say they don't go to orchestral performance because they don't have the money, it's wrong, at least in the countries I've lived in. When living in Sydney I used to go regularly to the Opera House, there I've seen Tori Amos and other pop acts, tickets were more than AU$100, same for Seal at the State Theatre. Prices were in the same range for The Police at the local arena. In France and the U.K. tickets for international stars are also very expensive, closer to £/€100 than to €/£50. By the way in Australia, prices to go and see jazz stars were the same as for pop stars, I've seen Wayne Shorter and Ornette Coleman and the prices were in the same range. However, you could go and hear the Sydney Symphony for AU$20-30 and local jazz performance for a tenner (and that means Mike Nock, Judy Bailey, Dale Barlow, Sandy Evans, Errol Buddle, Phil Slater, Roger Dean....really excellent musicians). It's the same in France and in the U.K. I agree, the crowd is different, people going to classical and jazz concerts are generally coming from educated and wealthy (sometimes both) parts of the population. However, I think it is more a cultural issue than a commercial one. The main difference, as someone already suggested is that classical venues and some jazz venues get public money. Of course jazz gets a lot less, and in France that has been quite dramatically reduced sine jazz has been merged "institutionallly" with "musiques actuelles" (current music, meaning mostly amplified popular music), which is why classical music can offer performances at a more accessible price than pop acts. However jazz festivals, big ones, need to fill the seats, so yes pop and rock acts are here for that. France is a bit apart because pop music gets funding as well but mostly for record production costs.

Sorry for the lengthy post, but this is a very interesting, complicated and fascinating issue, there's lot of academic research made on these questions, if I can and if people are interested, I'll find some references.

Cheers, Pierre.
 
Sep 24, 2016 at 4:13 PM Post #2,046 of 5,027
  Not much a fan of Snarky Puppy.  That is just noise to me and does not seem much like Jazz.  But to each his own.

 
Agreed. There isn't much jazz being posted in this thread, which is a great pity.
 
Sep 24, 2016 at 4:29 PM Post #2,047 of 5,027
Ok let's get back to basics. We listened to these two earlier today. Absolute classics...

Gerry+Mulligan+Meets+Ben+Webster+-+200Gm+398271.jpg


latest
 
Sep 24, 2016 at 7:11 PM Post #2,048 of 5,027
Ok let's get back to basics. We listened to these two earlier today. Absolute classics...

Gerry+Mulligan+Meets+Ben+Webster+-+200Gm+398271.jpg


latest


Definitely 2 classics, and a great post after Trane's birthday (yesterday).
 
Sep 25, 2016 at 2:30 AM Post #2,049 of 5,027
Yes, undoubtedly the presence of rock and pop acts is there to bring a younger and more numerous audience, although Sting's audience is aging as well. But we also shouldn't forget that this mix has been at the inception of many jazz festivals. Montreux, Nice and Newport jazz festivals always had jazz and more crowd pleasing acts. We shouldn't be too cynical as well and accept that people and festival organisers think of pop, funk, R&B and rock acts as directly linked to jazz, kind of being the children of it. I'm saying this while acknowledging that the main reason for the presence of these genres in jazz festival is commercial viability.
There's just one sentence I don't agree with and it's this one: "Classical doesn't need it because THAT genre is a MUCH older wealthier crowd (cost of shows is not price sensitive) and been steady and price is not much of an issue." I can't comment on the status and fonctioning of "classical" (i hate that word) music in the USA, but I have lived in France (where I was born), in Australia and I now live in the U.K., and it's been my experience that pop and rock concerts are the most expensive to go to.
I'm always annoyed by people who say they don't go to orchestral performance because they don't have the money, it's wrong, at least in the countries I've lived in. When living in Sydney I used to go regularly to the Opera House, there I've seen Tori Amos and other pop acts, tickets were more than AU$100, same for Seal at the State Theatre. Prices were in the same range for The Police at the local arena. In France and the U.K. tickets for international stars are also very expensive, closer to £/€100 than to €/£50. By the way in Australia, prices to go and see jazz stars were the same as for pop stars, I've seen Wayne Shorter and Ornette Coleman and the prices were in the same range. However, you could go and hear the Sydney Symphony for AU$20-30 and local jazz performance for a tenner (and that means Mike Nock, Judy Bailey, Dale Barlow, Sandy Evans, Errol Buddle, Phil Slater, Roger Dean....really excellent musicians). It's the same in France and in the U.K. I agree, the crowd is different, people going to classical and jazz concerts are generally coming from educated and wealthy (sometimes both) parts of the population. However, I think it is more a cultural issue than a commercial one. The main difference, as someone already suggested is that classical venues and some jazz venues get public money. Of course jazz gets a lot less, and in France that has been quite dramatically reduced sine jazz has been merged "institutionallly" with "musiques actuelles" (current music, meaning mostly amplified popular music), which is why classical music can offer performances at a more accessible price than pop acts. However jazz festivals, big ones, need to fill the seats, so yes pop and rock acts are here for that. France is a bit apart because pop music gets funding as well but mostly for record production costs.

Sorry for the lengthy post, but this is a very interesting, complicated and fascinating issue, there's lot of academic research made on these questions, if I can and if people are interested, I'll find some references.

Cheers, Pierre.

Hello Pierre,
 
I agree with most what you said. Nevertheless, I think a little differentiation has to be done. Cultural events in general, being classical concerts, jazz concerts, theatre, etc., has become affordable, for everyone. Where things get really expensive are the so-called big festivals. Go and book tickets for the main concerts at Montreux Jazz Festival. They tend to be very expensive. I know many who refuse to pay such tickets. Take the world leading classical music festivals like Bayreuth, Glyndebourne, Lucerne Music Festival, etc., and the prices become exorbitant, and even if you want to get tickets, very hard to get. The English speaking countries might be a little more moderate, but continental Europe has lost all measures. But tickets during the regular concert period can be quite moderate. I remember a breathtaking concert conducted by Lorin Maazel six or seven years ago at the Concergebouw in Amsterdam where I got one of the last seats in the back row for 50 Euros. But I gave up getting tickets at the Lucerne Music Festival when he still conducted. Prices were around 300 Euros. And THAT is not affordable for everyone!
 
Sep 25, 2016 at 2:40 AM Post #2,050 of 5,027
   
Agreed. There isn't much jazz being posted in this thread, which is a great pity.

I do not agree with this statement. Haven't you browsed through the 100 or so pages? There's a reasonable chunk of jazz represented in this thread, and some real gems that can be found. The discussion might have drifted more to contemporary jazz. If you consider the bop, or hard bop, as the one and only Jazz, I agree that contemporary jazz often does not fit into this scheme. But there's nothing wrong with that. The old Jazz legends are not with us anymore and the new generation has to find its own ways to express what they think Jazz develops to.
 
So as a tribute to the Jazz Greats, here's a wonderful Miles Davis record that I listened to yesterday:
 

 
Sep 25, 2016 at 1:43 PM Post #2,052 of 5,027
It also pays to remember that what jazz players used for material in the 30's,40's, 50's, was, to a large extent, the popular music of the time (even many original tunes were built on changes of pop tunes and show tunes). To a large extent, that music is no longer "popular "; it makes sense for musicians to incorporate what they grew up with and know.
 
Sep 26, 2016 at 3:10 AM Post #2,053 of 5,027
It also pays to remember that what jazz players used for material in the 30's,40's, 50's, was, to a large extent, the popular music of the time (even many original tunes were built on changes of pop tunes and show tunes). To a large extent, that music is no longer "popular "; it makes sense for musicians to incorporate what they grew up with and know.

Exactly!
 
Oct 2, 2016 at 10:50 AM Post #2,054 of 5,027
https://wfmu.org/playlists/shows/68813

my required Sunday morning stop for new, "out" music (not just jazz), is on the air NOW (but, shows are all archived, and can be streamed at a later date).
Listen, if you dare...
 

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