Old "King" of R2R DAC Is Dead? Denafrips Terminator-Plus / Terminator+ Arrives
Jul 21, 2020 at 10:23 PM Post #61 of 248
Why is it so complicated, simplest solution is to pluck in and out the word clock cable when needed.
I am in a slightly different boat with you guys. I do not have a high end streamer yet, still using an aging squeezebox touch. I think I will get the Soundaware D300 ref as a Streamer / DDC instead of Gaia. 6moons say that it can function as a reclocker, only thing holding me back is if they released mk2 version next year...
https://6moons.com/audioreviews2/soundaware4/1.html
 
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Jul 21, 2020 at 11:16 PM Post #62 of 248
Right, as inputs are high impedance they do not count, the end of cable must be terminated. I wrongly assumed that inputs are terminating 75Ohms. Sorry pal, my mistake.

Now I understand source of confusion: Denafrips statement about possible not enough voltage when adding more devices.

Hi Sajunky,

Yes and yes ... still await the demo unit of gaia hopefully soon to try it out before taking the plunge.

Did also suggested for Denafrip to up its clock outputs of the TP if indeed lacking the drive for at least 2 components of Avatar and gaia which cannot be rocket science for them.

Using a distribution clock to buffer will solve insufficient drive of the TP's clock output if indeed the case but I have no wish for such complication and expense just to have secondary synced clock of my Bel Canto fm-1 ... any damage upfront on the digital signal e.g. already added jitters would not be recoverable is my understanding.

Cheers.

Richard
 
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Jul 21, 2020 at 11:28 PM Post #63 of 248
Why is it so complicated, simplest solution is to pluck in and out the word clock cable when needed.
I am in a slightly different boat with you guys. I do not have a high end streamer yet, still using an aging squeezebox touch. I think I will get the Soundaware D300 ref as a Streamer / DDC instead of Gaia. 6moons say that it can function as a reclocker, only thing holding me back is if they released mk2 version next year...
https://6moons.com/audioreviews2/soundaware4/1.html

Hi zzzmonster,

Guess I am lazy but I also believe Denafrips should have considered or fix this for their flagship product of TP and ensure this for their latest offerings and ecosystem .. beefing up the clock outputs should also be easy peasy for them but still hope that just 2 components synced is doable.

On the soundaware option, I once considered it for my previous Terminator for RJ45 i2s as hdmi is2 was already occupied by the Jay Audio's cdt2 but was put off by negative feedback on their dysfunctional UI software ... it also seems that that they had not gartnered much support from users and vice versa.

Cheers.

Richard
 
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Jul 23, 2020 at 5:13 PM Post #64 of 248
T+ has arrived.
T+1.jpg
 
Jul 25, 2020 at 4:36 AM Post #65 of 248
Hi Blake,

Indeed and I was also hoping to have other limited sources e.g. Bel Canto ⁸FM-1 Tuner via the Gaia even with the Terminator Plus to benefit from the reclocked to ocxo specification.

However, I noted the following disadvantages for just adding the Gaia to the standard Terminator and not sure if they make sense:
  1. No chance for subjectively 30% ups in sound quality via coveted synced clock setup with cost effective Denafrips Avator for those who still spins the silver discs ... into the relms of esotetic, dCS etc. on the cheap
  2. Seemingly inferior ocxo clocks in the Gaia from the photos of the exposed internals vs sealed clocks and more elaborate looking psu electronics for the Terminator Plus though Denafrip did not offer the specification of the ocxo clocks in both
  3. Noted improved already published specification on SNR and Dynamic Range of the Terminator Plus as compared to unknown but not better of having Gaia+standard Terminator
  4. More headache on additional powercord and interconnects since what are good enough or another usd1.5k I am using Zonotone Shupreme powercord, various Neotech silver digital cables etc. ?
  5. Additional space requirement and usual cabling layout consideration ... I still have my boxed Garrard 301 with SME3012R under my bed due to lack of space
  6. Lower DSD sampling rate via USB input of Gaia at 512 vs 1024 dual AES option at mentioned SNR and Dynamic Range of Terminator Plus
Only advantages with the Gaia to be added to the standard Terminator for me is that I will end up with more inputs and input types that I will not need and may be slightly lower cost with consideration to #3

In summary, I decided not to do so and sold my standard Terminator asap which also means I cannot test it out even if I have the Gaia now and need some owners of the standard Terminator to help advise.

Cheers.

Richard

GAIA:



Terminator Plus:


More photos of ocxo clocks in TP and Gaia (last one) for comparison.

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Jul 25, 2020 at 12:15 PM Post #66 of 248
https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/denafrips7/

Glad clock outputs of TP is finally explored here albiet I need to test out gaia to sync instead of daisy chain my Avatar and demo gaia next week .. and to be continued.

I prefer direct connection to TP of the Avatar and also my Antipodes ex via usb but will be interesting especially if conversion to i2s in gaia of this usb and synced clock to TP's ocxo clock will be better sound quality.

Cheers.

Richard
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Jul 26, 2020 at 4:50 AM Post #67 of 248
Hi All,

Just to share what kept me up till 7 am this morning and good lesson of RTFM cos read incomplete 6moon review on this key clocking of TP to try setting clock to only find Avatar failing to read.

In short, 3 mentioned clock outputs of TP in 6moon is NOT the same and pls revert to Denafrips TP's manual:

- Master=sync=slave terminology used often
- Word=separate function e.g. into Mutec 3+'s word clock input which Avatar's is NOT and hence din work when I naively selected 44.1/48khz

Btw, Avatar works with both 22.57Mhz (AES2) and 45.15Mhz (OPT) .. take the A of the A/B Mhz since Avatar is redbook 44.1khz and not B for 48khz music.

Please check out sweeterwater's link for a better description while noting sync clock=master clock in TP's manual:

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/what-is-the-difference-between-word-clock-and-clock-sync/

Cheers.

Richard
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Jul 26, 2020 at 8:31 AM Post #68 of 248
b
Hi Richard, I wouldn't be so quick to come to that conclusion based on spec sheets and photos. I am sure we will eventually have some members that can try the Terminator+Gaia vs. Terminator Plus and give us some feedback and eventually develop some consensus.

Just pure, wild speculation on my part after experimenting myself with quite a few DAC + D/D combos and reading lots of professional reviews on D/D converters, but I have a hunch which option would come out on top.. We shall see. Of course, if money is not an issue Terminator Plus + Gaia would almost certainly trump all.

Hi Blake,

Just found out gaia is worldwide voltage aka switching power supply for obvious cost and logistics advantages :frowning2:

Let's see how it turns out next week when I audition in MY system.

Cheers.

Richard
 
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Jul 26, 2020 at 10:17 PM Post #69 of 248
Also, I was very much hoping the word clock cables wouldn't make an audible difference. Alas, a comparison between Mogami, Canare, and Apogee Wyde Eye net very discernible differences. Here's a summary of my findings with about 100 hours on each (except the Apogee):

Canare - Least impressive of the bunch. Small soundstage, bloated lower frequencies, and grit in the treble. I don't know if this is specific to the brand of pre-built cable I purchased (https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/WDCS1.5--pro-co-1.5-foot-premium-canare-word-clock-cable) or if 100 hrs wasn't enough time for it to fully settle in.

@richardloh - I see you bought a Canare cable. Note that yours looks completely different from mine, and I have Neutrik Gold connectors, so my experience likely isn't representative of what you'll experience.

Mogami - Always smooth, but started out with bloated bass. Over the course of a few days, it tightened up to the point where it was so tight it became borderline sterile. The sound stage is so big and the decay is so short, it's the HD800 of clock cables (without the fatigue). This cable showed me what I was missing with the Canare.

Apogee Wyde Eye - I only have about 10 hours on this cable. It lacked some treble and the treble it did have was edgy out of the box. Just in the 10 hours, the treble increased a bit in quantity and largely smoothed out. I'm left with this incredibly smooth (especially in the mids and bass), thick (but not bloated) sound and a sound stage that exposes the layers of depth beautifully. It's the smoothness of this cable that allows you to hear the further layers without any obstructions. It doesn't have the pinpoint accuracy of the Mogami, but the flow of the music and holography of the sound stage are really something. I know I'm rambling about this cable, but it's really unlike anything else I've heard. Most cables, the sound stage has layers, but usually with limits. For instance, a little outside your head to really outside your head OR inside your head to a little outside your head. The Apogee spans the entire gamut. As of now, tonally, it's the LCD4 of clock cables.

All of these are obviously my perceptions on my system, but interesting to see something as simple as a clock cable making such impact on the sound presentation. I'm going to spend a few more days with the Apogee and see how things play out. I can't say whether the Apogee or Mogami is better - system matching and preferences would play heavily into this.

One other thing.. the Apogee sounded distinctly better when I realized it is a directional cable and I flipped it around (the arrows are easy to miss). Like the clock cable itself, the directionality was another thing I didn't expect to make a difference. The audio rabbit hole is deeeep.

Hi John,

My apogee wyde eye completed its 6 days voltage and current burn in and was put into the test to replace the Canare d5.5uhdc01e bring used that was similarly treated by the Hagerman Audio's frybaby 2.

Indeed the apogee wdye eye is smooth but I also lost details and density especially at low volume in MY system. Not sure if you are running balanced analog connection and the reason but my tube Audible Illusion L3A (blackgate) preamp is only singled ended.

The canare d5.5uhdc01e is back into the system after 3 consecutive comparison and will probably get more if planned daisy chain clocking of both gaia and Avatar to the TP works out ok later this week .. hopefully without the need of the Mutec mc3+ usb as the masterclock with TP's 44.1/48khz word clock.

Cheers.

Richard
 
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Jul 27, 2020 at 6:01 AM Post #72 of 248
DENAFRIPS uses smart power management system on the higher end models like the GAIA DDC, Terminator/Plus DAC.

When first power up, the power management detects the input voltage range (100-125VAC) or (220-245VAC), thereafter, select the correct voltage by means of switching a set of relays to apply the AC mains voltage to the O-Core Transformers (this explain the clicks sound when you power on the unit). It also protects the unit from overload/over-current by measuring the current drawn by the unit. It trips the relay (to cut off the power) should the fault detected.

Hope this clarifies!
 
Jul 27, 2020 at 6:35 AM Post #74 of 248
When first power up, the power management detects the input voltage range (100-125VAC) or (220-245VAC), thereafter, select the correct voltage by means of switching a set of relays to apply the AC mains voltage to the O-Core Transformers (this explain the clicks sound when you power on the unit).
I support Denafrips all the time, but this time it require a criticism. There was such trend in PC power supplies, but it was abandoned. Many of these PSU's died prematurely during lightning storms or power surges. Don't play fool with power lines!!! Such auto switching logic can be confused and result is a dead box (including motherboard).

The best solution is a switch inside (and then you can apply additional protection against user stupidity). A wide range of input voltage (that do not require a switch) is achieved as a bonus when PFC (power factor correction) is implemented.
 
Jul 27, 2020 at 6:35 AM Post #75 of 248
DENAFRIPS uses smart power management system on the higher end models like the GAIA DDC, Terminator/Plus DAC.

When first power up, the power management detects the input voltage range (100-125VAC) or (220-245VAC), thereafter, select the correct voltage by means of switching a set of relays to apply the AC mains voltage to the O-Core Transformers (this explain the clicks sound when you power on the unit). It also protects the unit from overload/over-current by measuring the current drawn by the unit. It trips the relay (to cut off the power) should the fault detected.

Hope this clarifies!

Hi Alvin/Cazone,

Thanks for the clarification 🙏.

Cheers.

Richard
 

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