[Saxon]

I am a home hi-fi nut who loves good sound and has a pretty good home hi-fi system, however portable audio isn't my area of expertise so I need some answers!

Traditionally for portable music I have used a Fiio X3 mk2 with cabled Dunu IEM's and it's served me well.

I recently acquired some Cambridge Audio Melomania IEM's and took them on a train ride to use with my phone and I completely fell in love with the experience of using them with my Oppo A9 phone and some music. Being cable free was an absolute joy and is the way I want to go! The problem is that the sound from the phone simply isn't good enough (even using Flac) and I know it's not because of the headphones because they sound better from my laptop and indeed I really like them.

So after reading up it seemed that I had two choices:

1. Buy a new DAP which supports bluetooth headphones - Fiio M9 (hard to get) or Fiio M11 Plus (a bit too expensive) seem to be frontrunners. Sony 105 is volume limited.
2. Buy a bluetooth dac/amp to use with my phone like the Fiio BTR5

I decided to order the Fiio BTR5 which came yesterday but try as I might I could not get the Melomania phones to pair with it. I have just discovered that the BTR5 is only bluetooth to the source (my phone) and doesn't support bluetooth headphones - duh!! It sounds great with my phone and my cabled headphones though but I really would prefer to go to wireless earbuds!

As somebody who thought they were something of a hi-fi expert I thought this shizzle would be simple but it clearly isn't! I've also been reading up that in fact with wireless earbuds the DAC is actually happening in the headphones and not in the player or BTR5 at all. So presumably the improvement in sound quality I am hearing with the BTR5 is purely because the amps in there are better than the amps in my phone - is this correct?? Does that mean the BTR5 DAC only comes into play when you use cabled headphones???

So I would be very grateful if somebody could answer these questions and also to advise if there's a product that meets my need to connect wireless earbuds in good quality to my phone? If there isn't it looks like my only option is an expensive option like the Fiio M11 plus, but in truth I'd rather use the phone than have to lug a big bulky DAP around as well as a phone...

Help!

Saxon

 

[lantian]

If you are only using Bluetooth buds, only the dac/Amp or codec in them does anything to influence sound quality. Transmiter built into the phone or whatever dap is the only other part with any influence on the sound quality, even so most modern phones should have more than adequate quality Bluetooth transmitter inside. Son only benefit of using a dap would be the extra steps in volume control. Other than that a dap would not improve the quality at all.
With thing like Bluetooth receiver which the btr5 is one of you are benefiting from the dac and. Amp inside it, since it takes over the whole process and sends pure analog signal to your wired buds.
Would say stick to your phone for Bluetooth buds.

 

[Saxon]

Thanks Ian - so just to clarify: Are you saying that bluetooth IEM's handle not only the DAC but also the amplification too because if that's the case then even spending £700 on a Fiio M11 Plus won't give me any better sound quality than my phone with my bluetooth earbuds??? If on the other hand the earbuds only contain a DAC and not an amplifier then presumably I would benefit from the better amplification that a Fiio M11 would have rather than my Android phone??

Would be very grateful if you can explain. I'm just trying to figure this stuff out - and I bet I'm not alone!!
With thanks,

Saxon

 

[lantian]

Thanks Ian - so just to clarify: Are you saying that bluetooth IEM's handle not only the DAC but also the amplification too because if that's the case then even spending £700 on a Fiio M11 Plus won't give me any better sound quality than my phone with my bluetooth earbuds??? If on the other hand the earbuds only contain a DAC and not an amplifier then presumably I would benefit from the better amplification that a Fiio M11 would have rather than my Android phone??

Would be very grateful if you can explain. I'm just trying to figure this stuff out - and I bet I'm not alone!!
With thanks,

Saxon

In either case everything is handled in the Bluetooth buds themselves, both dac and Amp sections are in there. Until the signal reaches the buds it is purely digital, so no amplification before the buds is possible, a dap will not give any benefit there. Only possible way of making the digital signal louder is pushing it beyond 0dbs in the digital domain, before sending it out, this though would result in a massive amount of clipping.

 

[Saxon]

Gosh thanks for that reply Lantian - I hadn't realised that wireless headphones were such a big leveller in terms of the hardware! I guess it explains why so many enthusiasts stick with cabled headphones where various bits of hardware can make a big difference and the quality is ultimately higher.

MY phone is already sending LDAP bluetooth 5.0 so it sounds like an expensive DAP is an expensive waste of money with bluetooth IEM's. The only way for me to get better sound then would be better earbuds and frankly the Melomania are already regarded as very good.

So my dilemma now is:

How important is the comfort/convenience of wireless IEM's to me compared to sound quality. I must admit the Dunu Titan 1's sound incredible through the BTR5 - miles better than the Melomania do coupled directly to the phone on bluetooth.

It does feel like either way the expensive DAP route nowadays makes less and less sense. If you're on cabled headphones then an offboard amp/dac like the BTR5 or an ifi Audio unit gets you darned close to even the very best DAP's and you can use your phone! It's the cheap as chips solution if you already have a suitable phone. In addition:

So my Oppo A9 2020 is running later Android than any DAP
On a faster CPU
With a better/bigger screen
Uses the latest and greatest LDAP 5.0 bluetooth
And performs lots of other functions
And is smaller and lighter than some of the chunkier DAP's
And offers exceptional battery life
And can run the same Fiio app (which I really love)
And takes less space than having to take a DAP along for the ride

It's looking like a no-brainer - I will probably keep the BTR5 for those times I want ultimate quality and just use the phone. Kind of sad that I might have purchased my last Fiio player!! I'm going to do one last comparison to make my mind up between my wife's Fiio X1 mk3 (with bluetooth) to see how it compares to the phone on the Melomania earbuds. If you're right there should be negligible/nil sound difference!

Really appreciate your help!

Saxon

 

[Sonic Defender]

I would suggest that it is possible that the shift towards Bluetooth was a leap of faith and you still have some myths to expel. Myths that are widely propagated in the threads here. The first myth is that Bluetooth is inherently inferior compared to a wired connection and that is absolute tripe. Bluetooth when well implemented, which is very easy to do now with the advanced chipsets being made and used, is capable of total audio transparency.

I would be willing to stake a ton of cash that 100% of the members here and elsewhere who tell you they can hear the difference between say USB and Bluetooth are using sighted listening tests, which are useless, or it could be possible in some cases that they are using older Bluetooth implementations that are not anywhere up to standard as compared with the current maturity in Bluetooth.

I made the switch to Bluetooth years ago and I am no stranger to high quality systems and audio reproduction. I have been an audio enthusiast since the mid 1980s. My current home speaker system is not what you would find in a wealthy persons home, but it is a very competent system that took years to arrive at and features lovely Monitor Audio PL200 mains supported by two SVS SB2000 Pro subs, a Gustad X16 DAC and a NAD M3 integrated amp. The system is capable and I have been using my LG G7 and now G8 as a source via Bluetooth exclusively. I tried using USB and there was just nothing different, except the inconvenience that a wired connection brought me.

In portable audio, that is of course where I made the jump to Bluetooth first and a good phone and good Bluetooth headphones are all that you need for audio bliss. As the previous member posted, the real work is done between the two Bluetooth points so an expensive DAP is extremely unlikely to yield you any audible gain, IMO. Regardless, and feel free to ignore me, but I would strongly suggest that you just take some time and let yourself enjoy the blissful freedom of wireless! Enjoy and please do keep the thread updated with your experience.

 

[Saxon]

SonicDefender,

Great post! You rightly point out the vast difference between sighted and blind listening tests. Like you I have spent decades assembling a really good home hi-fi system - ATC speakers, naim amps, a Gyrodec turntable with an SME arm. I've spent years listening to good components, attending shows, reading magazines but also years swallowing accepted wisdom!!! That all got turned on its head when my daughter set up some blind listening tests and myself and another buddy couldn't reliably tell the difference between 320kbps MP3 and 16/44 FLAC!! Now granted this was unfamiliar music (Billy Eilish but before she was famous) but my 16 year old daughter made her point quite effectively that day. She listens almost entirely on Spotify to MP3 via iphone/ipad which I have spent years telling her is crap compared to Tidal Hi-fi on a dedicated naim streamer which I use. She thinks I'm ridiculous with my fairly expensive Chord and QED audiophile cables between components, my obsessions with dedicated mains spurs, star earthing, power supplies and the like!!

She plays guitar, piano, keyboards, sings and writes her own music so she knows what real instruments sound like. She just thinks (and I now accept with some justification) that hi-fi nerds spend ludicrous amounts of time obsessing over trifling differences. As you say - LDAC bluetooth is capable of transmitting over 900kbps - enough for lossless 16/44 FLAC and it's hard to believe that many people on here could honestly and reliably tell the difference between 16/44 sent bluetooth or 16/44 sent USB.

I must admit there's a part of me that is reluctant to stop using a dedicated DAP. For one thing I liked running down my player battery not my phone battery. But more than that I partly don't want to admit that my phone (Snapdragon 665/bluetooth 5.0 - an object which I regard as a heap of chinese crap containing mass produced consumer grade electronics) can now deliver music to wireless earbuds perhaps as well or better than something like a Fiio M9 or M11 with its 4.2 bluetooth and earlier version of Android and its slower CPU. It's also hard to accept that a set of fine bluetooth IEM's might be a match for a set of cabled IEM's. As you say my experimentations with some bluetooth earbuds was a leap of faith - but oh the freedom, the joy of no cables!! Just me and the open road and my music and nothing in between us!! I've got a big train trip coming up next month and I'm so looking forward to being able to do that without worrying about cables!!

So the big question as you say is where to from here? I'm playing around with the BTR5, the phone and now plan to evaluate some bluetooth earbuds to see what's out there that comes close to my cabled Dunu Titan 1 and is better than the Cambridge audio Melomania I currently have. If I can find something suitable I will be sending the BTR5 back. If not I will probably keep it.

Saxon

 

[Sonic Defender]

@Saxon What a great story. Thanks for sharing that with us. That totally brought a smile to my face and it so closely echoes my journey. I also have a daughter the same age and it sounds like our sensibilities are ultimately constrained by evidence. I have had training and exposure to experimental psychology and you can't unlearn what constitutes rigorous and reliable evidence.

Another great parallel with your story is that years ago at a head-fi meet I hosted I conducted a multiple subject (5) multiple trial (7) controlled blind listening test which compared exactly what your daughter used a 320MP3 against the lossless master that it was ripped from. I used the well established LAME Encoder built into JRiver Media Center for the extraction from the physical media (I own hundreds of CDs) and from that I had a Flac library where the test track came from. I used a very dynamic track from Holly Cole's excellent album Romantically Hopeless, the wonderful song One Trick Pony. I won't go into the design, but the results were that not one of the subjects was able to do better than I think about a 55% detection rate which is of course simply luck. The standard that would be used to demonstrate reliable evidence of discrimination would be 90%.

Like yourself it became quite clear to me that if people can't tell a 320MP3 from the Flac master it came from, transitively Bluetooth could better that therefore it is supportable that Bluetooth can be audibly transparent when done right. Since then my experience with Bluetooth has been that it is indeed audibly transparent and that their are some great Bluetooth headphones out there. There will be a day in the not very distant future where TOTL headphones from many companies such as Audeze, HiFi Man, and others with the resources to design and implement BT circuits will be offered with Bluetooth as the primary connection technology.

And smartphones are quite sophisticated and often well designed devices. Now rather than selling my LG G7 when I moved to the G8 I simply kept the G7 and will put in a large SD card and use that as my source. It already has BT 5 so there is no DAP currently out there that would tempt me to give up the G7 for example. Why would I? It has a great screen and there are several players such as Neutron and Onkyo HF Player that I can and do use with great interfaces and great equalizers built into them. I'm quite happy with BT and I've saved a ton of money getting out of the DAP game, but that's me and I don't pretend for a moment that I think others should feel the same. Each to their own as they say.

 

[Lumithium]

In terms of Bluetooth, some of the DAP doesn't have good Bluetooth modules inside. It is never the star feature of most DAPs, it is likely you will get better Bluetooth out of your phone.

With a DAP you are using it to store your music and use it's battery life instead of your phone, but with Bluetooth you are essentially skipping over it's DAC and AMP, which takes away the main value of the DAP. You are also skipping DAP's flexibility over everyday smartphones with it's output ports. Getting a battery back and a big SD card will be a much better investment than getting a DAP.

There will be a day in the not very distant future where TOTL headphones from many companies such as Audeze, HiFi Man, and others with the resources to design and implement BT circuits will be offered with Bluetooth as the primary connection technology.

The biggest problem will be power output and battery life. Hifiman'd bluemini only outputs 235mW with 7-10 hours of battery life. Which is not a lot of power for headphones and pretty average in terms of battery life. It is still quite a long way before it becomes a truly viable option as a primary connection I think.

 

[iFi audio]

If you're on cabled headphones then an offboard amp/dac like the BTR5 or an ifi Audio unit gets you darned close to even the very best DAP's and you can use your phone!

Yes, a high performance wireless DAC/amp connected to a smartphone transport is a highly practical route. We use smartphones a lot anyway, they're constantly connected to the www and streaming music from a cloud never has been any simpler than it is now. Besides, wireless playback is getting better and better, which also factors in.

But then again, DAPs are still very convenient for those enthusiasts who want high performance all-in-one boxes just for music playback.

There's no right and wrong here. As long as there's access to multiple options, everyone should be happy!