[Whitigir]

The FPGA in the Chord products aren't super expensive either in the grand scheme of the total cost of the product (the most expensive Spartan 6 series in the DAVE is no more than 200 dollars for a 10 grand product). What cost more is Rob Watt's personal software DAC code which makes the Chord product sings, without which even if you buy the exact same or better FPGA from Xilinx you cannot reproduce the "Chord sound". On a tangent, the increase advertising of Chinese audiophile products including FPGA is most definitely a sneaky marketing technique trying to cash in on Chord's success - preciously for the reason people don't actually know where the cost actually goes to.

Bringing up the cost of the DAC chip doesn't really make your argument convincing.

You are correct and I totally agree. If it was S-Master and FPGA as inside TA-ZH1ES, I would understand the unique approaches of Sony...but Mehhh

Dave at 8K is totally worth it if anyone have the budget, because it supports a company uniqueness, hard-work, patented technology, not off the shelves and done. Sony being out done by Chord is ...not an acceptable fact

 

[purk]

@nanaholic
so have you heard the DMP-Z1? What do you think of it?

 

[Deftone]

The FPGA in the Chord products aren't super expensive either in the grand scheme of the total cost of the product - the most expensive Spartan 6 series which is used in the DAVE (not sure which exact model) is no more than 200~300 dollars for a 10 grand product. What cost more is Rob Watt's personal software DAC code which makes the Chord product sings, without which even if you buy the exact same or better FPGA from Xilinx you cannot reproduce the "Chord sound". On a tangent, the increase advertising of Chinese audiophile products including FPGA is most definitely a sneaky marketing technique trying to cash in on Chord's success - preciously for the reason people don't actually know where the cost actually goes to.

Bringing up the cost of the DAC chip doesn't really make your argument convincing.

Most of us regular headfiers know this, my argument would be for, if Sony could not use current S-Master technology then why not create a new generation S-Master?

What we are happy to pay a lot of money for is innovation in DAC technology, the secret all custom code that has took years of work by experts, not an off the shelf chip set for beginners.

PSAudio and Chord are setting the bar in my opinion.

 

[audionewbi]

Lets just put it this way, based on Sony's past, using an off-the-shelf product for what is priced to be a flagship product is unheard-off, let alone uncommon. Traditionally Sony had a thing for not wanting to use an off the shelf product, and doing so on their premium product just looks out of place.

Perhaps if they waited and released this product using the next generation of the S-mater people will have less of a reaction. One might even argue that perhaps the S-master chip was never good, to a level that Sony felt uneasy using it on their flagship DAC/amp and decide to use something else for their flagship product.

Doesn't make sense from Sony product line history perspective.

 

[NehPets]

Separated by a thick wall of aluminium of the H shaped chassis. If you look at it from the front this is what it looks like

|======Screen=====|
| slot Digital PCB Board|
|================ |
|-----------------------------|
|Analogue PCB Board|
|================|

With respect, I think you're mistaken.
Assuming that the large PCB shown in the video, with all the capacitors on it, is the analogue board, then there's no way it can sit in the lower half of the chassis because that board also has the two microSD card sockets and USB connector mounted on it, which are clearly in the upper half of the chassis, along with the display unit.

 

[nanaholic]

Most of us regular headfiers know this, my argument would be for, if Sony could not use current S-Master technology then why not create a new generation S-Master?

What we are happy to pay a lot of money for is innovation in DAC technology, the secret all custom code that has took years of work by experts, not an off the shelf chip set for beginners.

PSAudio and Chord are setting the bar in my opinion.

Because making a new chip is not simple, and the last new S-Master chip came out with the WM1 series, which is barely 2 years old. And Sony said pretty firmly they are not abandoning development of the S-Master. So the most likely answer is - their S-Master development didn't get the performance they hoped and they need to change ship, which is a very common thing in chip development. Also unlike FPGA which is software based (that's what the F and P stands for you know - Field Programmable), Sony's S-Master chip is entirely fabricated on the silicon level as they actually make the silicon, Sony's production method is not really comparable to either Chord or PSAudio here.

Also Sony has incorporated a DSD conversion engine in the DMP-Z1 which is their own secret sauce, because you know, they created DSD and all that. Again people dismissing Sony's effort in their engineering thus far has been pretty unfair if you just focus solely on the DAC chip and DAC chip only.

EDIT: Also see what PSAudio themselves have to say about importance of DAC chips
https://www.psaudio.com/askpaul/how-important-is-the-dac-chip-itself/

 

[nanaholic]

With respect, I think you're mistaken.
Assuming that the large PCB shown in the video, with all the capacitors on it, is the analogue board, then there's no way it can sit in the lower half of the chassis because that board also has the two microSD card sockets and USB connector mounted on it, which are clearly in the upper half of the chassis, along with the display unit.

The microsd card slot is on the underside of the digital board.
The digital board is the one which has a lot of FT caps on it that are the same as the Walkmans, the actual analogue board (you can see in the background) is the one with the large gold coloured capacitors that is lying on the side.

 

[NehPets]

The microsd card slot is on the underside of the digital board.
The digital board is the one which has a lot of FT caps on it that are the same as the Walkmans, the actual analogue board (you can see in the background) is the one with the large gold coloured capacitors that is lying on the side.

Apologies. That'll teach me to make assumptions.

 

[nanaholic]

Apologies. That'll teach me to make assumptions.

No need to apologise. Sorting out these kinds of information I find is much more constructive than debating about DAC chip choices.

 

[Deftone]

Because making a new chip is not simple, and the last new S-Master chip came out with the WM1 series, which is barely 2 years old. And Sony said pretty firmly they are not abandoning development of the S-Master. So the most likely answer is - their S-Master development didn't get the performance they hoped and they need to change ship, which is a very common thing in chip development. Also unlike FPGA which is software based (that's what the F and P stands for you know - Field Programmable), Sony's S-Master chip is entirely fabricated on the silicon level as they actually make the silicon, Sony's production method is not really comparable to either Chord or PSAudio here.

Also Sony has incorporated a DSD conversion engine in the DMP-Z1 which is their own secret sauce, because you know, they created DSD and all that. Again people dismissing Sony's effort in their engineering thus far has been pretty unfair if you just focus solely on the DAC chip and DAC chip only.

EDIT: Also see what PSAudio themselves have to say about importance of DAC chips
https://www.psaudio.com/askpaul/how-important-is-the-dac-chip-itself/

I know what it means my friend, i dont really like your patronising replies. I also wouldnt join in on the conversation if i didnt understand any of this.

Im out anyway, i cant fathom how Sony expect people to pay so much for this unit or why somone would want to pay a premium for it, when you could save a bit more and get a Chord Dave or many other pieces of world class equipment people have mentioned. Each to their own as they say.

 

[nanaholic]

I know what it means my friend, i dont really like your patronising replies. I also wouldnt join in on the conversation if i didnt understand any of this.

Im out anyway, i cant fathom how Sony expect people to pay so much for this unit or why somone would want to pay a premium for it, when you could save a bit more and get a Chord Dave or many other pieces of world class equipment people have mentioned. Each to their own as they say.

Yet you don't seem to actually demonstrate that knowledge in your post by the way you compare a chip that is fabricated from scratch to FPGA, nor acknowledge the fact that the people at Sony had said why they made that choice in the DMP-Z1 repeatedly - the current S-Master isn't powerful enough for the goal so they choose the AKM DAC and TI amp chip, but they are in no way abandoning S-Master development.

There's nothing wrong with saying the DMP-Z1 is too expensive, heck I even said that directly to the people who made it. However making valid apples to apples comparison is essential to constructive discussion, and I find the people who keep implying Sony is half-hearting their effort here without even understanding the basic facts is the more patronising stance.

 

[Whitigir]

There is another reason why Sony didn’t adopt S-Master in Z1.

It was simply not capable of handling DSD correctly, so Sony opted for AKM4497EQ as Sony deemed that this specific DAC handles the jobs better. This limitations of DSD and S-Master is already shown in the TA-ZH1ES. The ES needs a good FPGA to help it accommodates the S-Master in the DSD Native task.

My questions is that. Why did they not make S-Master and FPGA like TAZH-1ES, but rather gone with AK4497EQ ? Simply put, it serves the purposes of the DMP-Z1, and that configurations of TA-ZH1ES just wouldn’t fit, period

 

[Kakki]

10 years ago, when TA-DR1 was released in the market, the product designer Kanai-san mentioned that the switching speed of Silicon MOS-FET was the limitation for S-Master.
But 10 years have passed and we now have much more advanced switching devices such as SiC (Silicon Carbide) FET and GaN (Gallium Nitride) FET that are still evolving and used only for the cutting-edge products.

Seeing that Panasonic is creating a flagship D-class power amplifier using GaN FET, I cannot help wondering why SONY could not create DMP-Z1 using a new S-Master using GaN FET or SiC FET.
https://www.technics.com/us/products/r1/se-r1.html

I will be very much pleased to pay $10,000 if only SONY created a new S-Master with FPGA / GaN FET and had a glass rid showing the shielded amplifier section. (maybe a gold-plated copper shielding panel with S-Master logo).
That will be much more attractive than AKM / TI general chips with old-style analogue big attenuater.

 

[Whitigir]

10 years ago, when TA-DR1 was released in the market, the product designer Kanai-san mentioned that the switching speed of Silicon MOS-FET was the limitation for S-Master.
But 10 years have passed and we now have much more advanced switching devices such as SiC (Silicon Carbide) FET and GaN (Gallium Nitride) FET that are still evolving and used only for the cutting-edge products.

Seeing that Panasonic is creating a flagship D-class power amplifier using GaN FET, I cannot help wondering why SONY could not create DMP-Z1 using a new S-Master using GaN FET or SiC FET.
https://www.technics.com/us/products/r1/se-r1.html

I will be very much pleased to pay $10,000 if only SONY created a new S-Master with FPGA / GaN FET and had a glass rid showing the shielded amplifier section. (maybe a gold-plated copper shielding panel with S-Master logo).
That will be much more attractive than AKM / TI general chips with old-style analogue big attenuater.

Yes, and this was my question toward Sony a few days back. Their answer is actually that the current S-Master has it limitations, and at the moment can not be improved upon, but they are working on it. At this moment, the DMP-Z1 is another line of product, and the AKM4497EQ was carefully selected after many considerations for the design directions and the product DMP-Z1 purposes, of which also surpass the current S-Master limitations. The best of the current S-Master for desktop is TA-ZH1ES, and portables is wm1Z.

In my opinion, they simply answer that the best S-master is released from last year, and Sony will not improve it annually, but more like a life cycle. Say if it was planned to last 3 years, then next year, we will see the next S-Master, but for now, there is no improved S-Master. Rather, it is another product line

 

[purk]

But it is quite a shift though. The ZH1ES is such a high value with an exceptional performance product. The 1Z maybe even better performance wise but is definitely overpriced no matter how I look at it.