[moodyrn]

Quote:

   
I'm not talking about sonic differences, I'm talking about driving a headphone transparently. Is there any source that would explain how sonic differences are related to an amp's technical ability? Until then, I'm all for everyone having different perceptions and don't see no shame in it, hey I hear different stuff, less pleasing stuff too sometimes but it's not relevant to an amp's performance or figures of merit (which are bound in objectivity).
 
The only reason I interjected is because people were insinuating miceblue somehow wasn't hearing the HE-1000 right because of the amps he was using, when it's all subjective anyway. Like his amps are objectively so bad they make the HE-1000 sound drastically unlike what it is. I've got no reason to discuss this otherwise Wild.

 
Nobody said that. No one said his amps were bad. You are now drawing your own conclusions, and twisting words.  Show me were someone said his amps were bad. Show me where someone said he wasn't hearing  his he-1000 right. I was pointing out his budget amps wasn't going to give him what they were "fully" capable of. I've said several times that one of the things I like about them is the fact they do sound good on budget and even portable amps. And , they also scale so well, once you step up in gear you are truly rewarded in sonic bliss. That's completely different from what you are claiming. I suspected that you had an agenda. This post only bolsters my suspicion.

 

[immtbiker]

  ...There are two things required to properly drive any transducer. one is meeting the power demand, and the other is meeting the quality demand. With less resolving speakers or headphones, the difference between a budget to midfi amp might not even be discernable. And going to a high end amp will bring improvements, but nothing like using high end speakers or headphones. Lower end transducers usually are not resolving enough to justify the cost upgrading to high end components. 
 
Many will tell you whether you use a 1 one watt amp or a 500 watt amp, it really won't matter much if that first watt isn't what it's suppose to be. Nelson Pass will definitely tell you that. ...

 
 
In the '70's the boombox companies were falsely misleading urbanites, stating that their unit was putting out 300 Watts per channel!!!
But we know that 50 watts of high current power will be more effective and potent than 300 watts of low current power.
 
Using Ohm's Law, we know that  I = E / R  or  P= V x I. With the power P in watts (W) is equal to the voltage V in volts (V) times the current I in amps (A).
 
So using that, we can obtain 300 Watts 2 ways (or more):
 
-Power = 300 volts times 1 amp, or…
-Power = 30 volts times 10 amps, with the latter more suited amd more capable to drive the headphones or speakers.
 
You can't base a good amplifier just on it's wattage rating, without looking at current output and components quality.

 

[DreamKing]

  Quote:
 
Nobody said that. No one said his amps were bad. You are now drawing your own conclusions, and twisting words.  Show me were someone said his amps were bad. Show me where someone said he wasn't hearing  his he-1000 right. I was pointing out his budget amps wasn't going to give him what they were "fully" capable of. I've said several times that one of the things I like about them is the fact they do sound good on budget and even portable amps. And , they also scale so well, once you step up in gear you are truly rewarded in sonic bliss. That's completely different from what you are claiming. I suspected that you had an agenda. This post only bolsters my suspicion.

 
I'm saying this because what was being said suddenly made him assume his listening conditions were bad or crap like he said in this post: 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/767883/official-hifiman-he1000-impressions-thread/570#post_11684516
 
That's what it reads like.
 
And I don't understand what the agenda is about. What would your agenda look like? To tell him an amp's technical ability is based on perceptive qualities and price rather than what the amp technically does?

 

[moodyrn]

And there is. I knew it. Well you can have at it. I'm done.

 

[Wildcatsare1]

   
I'm not talking about sonic differences, I'm talking about driving a headphone transparently. Is there any source that would explain how sonic differences, that differ from a flat signal, are related to an amp's technical ability? Until then, I'm all for everyone having different perceptions and don't see no shame in it, hey I hear different stuff, less pleasing stuff too sometimes but it's not relevant to an amp's performance or figures of merit (which are bound in objectivity).
 
The only reason I interjected is because people were insinuating miceblue somehow wasn't hearing the HE-1000 right because of the amps he was using, when it's all subjective anyway. Like his amps are objectively so bad they make the HE-1000 sound drastically unlike what it is. I've got no reason to discuss this otherwise Wild.

OK, fair enough, though transparency differs significantly by amplifier. I am not technically adept enough to explain why though. The O2 really isn't a very good amp, on many levels, transparency being one of them. Kinda the similar to the Fiio Amps in this regard, just bright and murky versus dark and murky . Again, examples which have passed through my house on this sonic journey.

 

[richard51]

i had listen to 4 budget amps i have owned  with the same headphone...... Not one was identical and the difference was evident for me immediately.....the best one for me now is my Ember...i dont doubt one second of time that there is better amp...But you must pay way more...Another thing: No amp sound the same with all headphone .... I had listen the AKG 701 with the bravo amp versus the shiit magni..... Wow a world apart difference....The Magni is a good amp but the synergy with the AKG was not there compared to the Bravo.....The owner of the AKG sell the magni 24 fours hours after  the pairing with the Bravo....Its only an exemple of the impossibility to have the same synergy with all headphone for the same amp.....All review are only that: approximate evaluation heavily relative to many factors....

 

[money4me247]

 
From the frequency response graphs, the HE-560 appears to have more linear and complete bass extension from the sub-bass to the upper bass, and even well into the midrange, than the HE-1000. I don't doubt the HE-1000 has more air in the high frequencies though. And then the HE-6 is even more linear than both overall and shows more content in the HF than the HE-1000.

@DreamKing, as a person who did measurements on the HE-1k, I was just as shocked as you from my comparative findings. I spammed a lot of more senior members very experienced in measurements as I thought there was some sort of user error on my end with my measurements. One of the reasons I was hesitant to publish my measuring data immediately as I am light-years less experienced as someone like Tyll or Purrin. However, it does seem like my measurements are more or less similar to the more reputable sources, so I went ahead and posted them.
 
I do have both the HE-1000 and HE-560 on hand and have done numerous extended listening comparisons and numerous rapid-fire <10 second A/B comparisons. The HE-1000 does indeed have lower sub-bass extension and more bass presence than the HE-560 despite the similarities of the measurements in that region. From frequency response sweep tests, I would say that they still both sound quite linear over the bass region without any dramatic bumps or dips. The HE-1000's sub-bass just has a completely different feel though. For treble frequency response sweeps, I did detect subtle peaks on both headphones though nothing that would be extreme enough for me to call either not in the ballpark of neutral. I think the most noticeable difference is that I could actually detect the increased peak at 6kHz on the HE-560 in comparison to the HE-1000 in both listening impressions and sweeps, which was funny as prior to listening to the HE-1000, I never really noted that as a trouble area. I actually think I enjoy that extra crispiness (most noticeable in cymbals) that would be caused by such a peak in the HE-560.
 
As a side note, I still cannot hear the splashiness at 7 kHz on the HE-1000 that some senior head-fiers that I really respect talk about. Tried multiple different approaches and even trying to see if it would be more obvious using the best sounding totl amp pairing I could find during audition conditions. My measurements also don't tell me anything about that region either as all my measurements have an artifact in that region. I think I may just not be personally as sensitive to that region, though I feel like I should hear a dip there on other headphones if that was the case. Anyways, I am having fun still trying to learn & explore on that particular sonic aspect, so will see how it goes.
 

 
The HE1000 has more of a bass bump than the HE560 as me and other beta testers have pointed out. I also dont think it explains the softness they hear with the HE1000 as the extension on the HE1000 is very good

This is true from all my comparisons. I can't tell you why the FR curve may not show that, but I can tell you that is really what I hear in a direct comparison.

 

[DreamKing]

@money4me247 Alright, it seems like this headphone might have secrets up its sleeve of some sort I have to hear for myself to compare effectively. Usually when I do test tones sweeps for a particular headphone or iem, it coincides with their FR graphs or more likely my own ear sensitivity. Thanks for taking your time on measurements.

 

[money4me247]

oh & side-note, I updated my review with CSD plots. Cannot guarantee their accuracy, but something fun for people to look at if they are bored!

 

[purrin]

   
Moodyrn isn't the only that has some questions regarding Mice's thoughts. I've had a couple fellow headfiers come over to give a listen to the HE1000 and the biggest takeaway they had was how dynamic the sound of the HE1000 is.
 
@miceblue I think has mentioned that the HE1000 is soft on impact, and Tyll has also mentioned that. However, comparing the HE1000 to the HE560, the HE1000's ability to reproduce nuances and to move air is much better. Like... simply outclassing the HE560, not just being a little better. I remember seeing Mice's review of the HE560 and him saying that he quite liked the HE560, so I'm actually pretty curious as to know what his thoughts are comparing the two, though I know he only had a tour unit of the HE560.

 
Yup, I have a HE-560 in front of me as well. HEK does not sound softer than HE-560. It's all relative. I think HEK hits pretty hard and is rather impactful in the overall scheme of things. There is a certain "roundness", but I would not use the term soft. FWIW, HEK did sound soft directly from GeekOut or motherboard out though. YMMV. 

 

[ruthieandjohn]

Amp?  AMP?  My HE1000 don't need no stinkin' amp... works just fine out of my iPod shuffle!

 

 
Real men don't eat quiche, or use Fax cover sheets, or read instruction manuals, or use amps!  They uses their bare hands!

 

[money4me247]

lol... I actually tried that except with a Zune HD, and yes, you can indeed listen to music straight out a Zune HD.

 

[doctorjazz]

I have gotten the new MicroZOTL and the HEK, but I've been hesitant to post much because I have then both only 2 days, and I'd like to burn them in more, get more comfortable with the Sig, and compare with me other amps (have the Ray Samuels HR-2, the CEntrance LX M8 (having some technical issues with the M8), the Pono, the Geek Out Special Edition (also an ALO National and a C5 portable). But, have to agree that it is a fabulous sounding combination. Clear, open, wide stage. Sometimes I don't appreciate it when I listen for a while, then I put on my HE 560, which I've always loved, it sounds muddy by comparison. And, I'm not hearing the recessed mids...in fact, male vocals have a richness, and reality I haven't heard on other cans. I put them on my wife, put on Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald (Pono to ZOTL to HEK), she looks at me and says. It's like they're reincarnated", and, for a moment, she didn't think I'm completely insane (I'm sure it's temporary). Between being busy at work and burning in, still collecting my thoughts. But I may have a tough time returning my review sample of the MicroZOTL...

 

[money4me247]

I have gotten the new MicroZOTL and the HEK, but I've been hesitant to post much because I have then both only 2 days, and I'd like to burn them in more, get more comfortable with the Sig, and compare with me other amps (have the Ray Samuels HR-2, the CEntrance LX M8 (having some technical issues with the M8), the Pono, the Geek Out Special Edition (also an ALO National and a C5 portable). But, have to agree that it is a fabulous sounding combination. Clear, open, wide stage. Sometimes I don't appreciate it when I listen for a while, then I put on my HE 560, which I've always loved, it sounds muddy by comparison. And, I'm not hearing the recessed mids...in fact, male vocals have a richness, and reality I haven't heard on other cans. I put them on my wife, put on Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald (Pono to ZOTL to HEK), she looks at me and says. It's like they're reincarnated", and, for a moment, she didn't think I'm completely insane (I'm sure it's temporary). Between being busy at work and burning in, still collecting my thoughts. But I may have a tough time returning my review sample of the MicroZOTL...

ahhah does she know the price tag for these babies? ...pretty sure she'll get back to giving you those skeptical ur insane looks once she finds out

 

[doctorjazz]

She knows the HE 1k price, has an idea of the ballpark of the MicroZOTL (but not the exact, think she's afraid to ask). Just had my birthday a few weeks ago, this is my present. (she still doesn't know about the just delivered acs Encore, or at least doesn't remember, as that was an order that started out around Black Friday (fit issues, long story), (these are also competing for limited ear time). The point I was making was that she knew the HEK price, is not an audiophile, but when she heard the Ella and Louis album (one of her favorites, not coincidentally selected by yours truly), the purchase of the HEK seemed perfectly sensible to her (and perfectly sensible is not what she would describe most of my audio activity as...but the 1K gave her such pleasure listening to one of her favorite albums).