Oblivion | UltraSonic Studios
Feb 8, 2020 at 5:06 PM Post #556 of 7,484
Hot ! You're very neat. Each unit is hand crafted from start to finish.

Are those semi circle holes for decorative purpose or ventilation. :)
They're for ventilation but I try to make it decorative. This amp will have decorative rings around the sockets as well.

Now I want to use 4 of those EL12 spez as power tubes and the Telefunken EL11s as drivers. :) This is when my contemplation starts. :)
So, you have already finished that bottle of whiskey? :wink:
 
Feb 8, 2020 at 5:29 PM Post #557 of 7,484
So, you have already finished that bottle of whiskey? :wink:

That was last night. Today's a new day and time to dream of a new amp. :)

IMG-5102.jpg
 
Feb 9, 2020 at 12:54 AM Post #558 of 7,484
I take it these numbers are from measurements from Sonic? He did scale up the design somewhat, so those sound about right. My personal workhorse puts out about 1W and it's more than I'll ever need with speakers. Ears will give out before the amp starts clipping.

Since it was asked, I will super condensed answer this here. The reason is this: transients.

Music signal is such that 99% of the time it is within a pretty small power area, for 'normal' speakers and 'normal' volumes it's around 0.1 and 0.2 W RMS, no matter what amp you use.

Then the rest, let's say 1% of the time, are transients. Now these can range typically from 10x base level to 200x base level.

And there you can see it. If your amp is made in such a way, that THE WHOLE OF THESE TRANSIENTS must be within power delivery capability, you need A LOT of power to deliver that.

That is, if your amp has a gNFB loop, which destabilizes for a long long time if it clips (not just for the duration of the transient, much after that), you cannot have it clip.

If your amp has no such loop, the transient will simply clip, and immediately after the peak resume completely normal operation. Nothing is destabilized.

But what about the transients then? Well, you can read from this thread the listener reports about the transient response of Sonic's amp. It is reported as unparalleled. How can this be if transient peaks are simply clipped out?

This is because human hearing system works in a way that if you are presented with two consecutive transients that are sufficiently high above the baseline, you are almost completely unable to say which transient was higher.

So all transients that are like over 5x baseline, are - according to human sensory system - "very loud". Nothing more discriminating.

Proof is in the pudding. Sonic's amps produce natural sounding sharp transients by sensory reports. Yet electrically they are clipped.
That's interesting. So because of the special OT hybrid design, the sharp transients are electrically clipped, but done in a way that does not audibly degrade them? Dynamics have been often said to be one of the strengths of these amps, so it must be doing something the right way there.

I understand this line of thinking. This is 100% the place I was in at the start of my DIY journey, as I was beginning to put my own amps together.

Yet, this line of thinking is not taking into consideration the unique properties of Sonic's amps.

Now without going into a longwinded tech explanation, I will just say that these amps will (in my opinion) lessen the differences between speakers and headphones, not increase them. Let's say you use a trad amp with two sets of headphones, one really dark, one really bright. You take these same headphones and get an amp from Sonic.

Now, the dark headphone will still be darker than the other set, but (much) less so. The brighter set will also be more bassy and balanced. Both will be more transparent as a result. While the end point of the signal chain is always important, it's somewhat less so with these amps, in my opinion. The source signal becomes more important.

Opinions will vary of course.
Yes. But as said, in my opinion again, that will be less fruitful with these amps than with other amps. But on the plus side ALL OF YOUR HEADPHONES will sound better with these amps. So you'll win no matter what.
Just worth quoting again. I love it. That would certainly solve a lot of problems in the hobby if all headphones sounded better and more transparent.

Speakers do not have minimum current reqs but I get it you mean power reqs.

Here it is important to understand why this min power req is even mentioned. It is because SS amps drive the speakers directly. There is no output transformer. So, if the output of such an amp clips, even a little bit, there is DC fed to the speaker. This can very easily damage or even destroy the speaker. So, they spec it in such a way, that the signal transients never clip.

Now an OT is physically not possible to feed ANY DC to the speaker that is connected to the secondary. None at all, under any conditions, ever.

Well, if the OT shorts between primary and secondary, then yes, but that would require a pulse of say 5000 volts on the primary.

So, an amp with an OT is not capable of damaging the speakers that way, so for them, there are never any min power specs.
That's great not being able to clip the speaker. I thought the min. power requirements for speakers had more to do with being able to give better control of the driver with transient response, but if the Oblivion and Citadel amps are able to drive slightly higher demanding speakers and still get good sound, even if at a somewhat lower volume then that widens the speakers as well that can pair well.

I would really encourage you to order, these products have a very high resale value also. So if you do think after tests that you want that rolling option, you can just sell it to somebody else.

Why 6L6 specifically, if I may ask? Did you read my posts on tube selection? What did you think about them?

A 6L6 based amp of the same design would sound better than most all other amps, but somewhat less spatial information, clarity (separation between voices/instruments) and less fast. So a bit more like a traditional tube amp. More distortion in other words. I've tried it myself.
I was interested to see a custom Ultrasonic Studios amp using the 6L6 series because these are some of the absolute highest acclaimed series such as I have experienced myself with my GEC KT66 tubes, and because I currently have and building a solid collection of top-tier tubes of this class for use with my upcoming Glenn OT SET amp. I would like to buy one of these amps also but funds permitting.

In my opinion as always, that will not produce any sound quality effects at all. Completely out of the picture.
RE cables: though I don't want to start a cable discussion, myself and a good cross section of users across all of Head-Fi have noticed first-hand how different conductors color the sound differently.
 
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Feb 9, 2020 at 4:40 AM Post #559 of 7,484
RE cables: though I don't want to start a cable discussion, myself and a good cross section of users across all of Head-Fi have noticed first-hand how different conductors color the sound differently.

Personally, I'm not a great believer in the properties of cables, however I have experienced this myself. For example I've had a crappy silver cable which sounded... well... crappy. I've got OFC copper ATM which sounds warm and nice. I know that the differences between silver and copper are actually not that great, for example the resistances are fairly similar, and there are other factors which might influence anything you hear. For example cross sectional area, purity, whether any other materials are used in combination, if they are shielded, how the cables are arranged etc etc. One of the main things is that silver does not corrode so is often use to plate copper, so that is purely for longevity not for sound.

I've heard quite a lot of people say they made their own speaker cables out of cheap materials and they sounded excellent too!
 
Feb 9, 2020 at 4:47 AM Post #560 of 7,484
That was last night. Today's a new day and time to dream of a new amp. :)


Hey.. that was full yesterday :wink:. Sonic and I both noticed that, I guess you appreciated single malt!
 
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Feb 9, 2020 at 4:54 AM Post #561 of 7,484
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Feb 9, 2020 at 1:26 PM Post #562 of 7,484
Sonic your drill has a display. You're not at the CNC level yet, but you're definitely pretty close.

My drill has a handle and a cord. No display!


Now I want to use 4 of those EL12 spez as power tubes and the Telefunken EL11s as drivers. :) This is when my contemplation starts. :)

Decent curves, to my eyes very pretty envelopes. Availability is a bit concerning though. EL11 has a µ of about 20, hopefully that's enough.

That's interesting. So because of the special OT hybrid design, the sharp transients are electrically clipped, but done in a way that does not audibly degrade them? Dynamics have been often said to be one of the strengths of these amps, so it must be doing something the right way there.

Essentially yes. To be precise, the clipping behavior I was describing has nothing to do with the OT as such, it has to do with the circuit being either

1) open loop (no gNFB)

2) using gNFB.

This is the relevant thing here. If an amp using heavy gNFB clips, the loop destabilizes, and there is audible distortion for a long time, longer than the transient itself would last.

If there is no loop, there is nothing to destabilize. Clipping lasts as long as the transient lasts.

There are also other things to consider, but this is the main point, the most important thing to understand.

Just worth quoting again. I love it. That would certainly solve a lot of problems in the hobby if all headphones sounded better and more transparent.

Indeed. Once you try out Sonic's amps, you'll gain a completely new understanding of your signal chain as a whole. It's difficult to describe with words, other than "the source" becomes more important. In my personal opinion of course, perceptions may vary.

That's great not being able to clip the speaker. I thought the min. power requirements for speakers had more to do with being able to give better control of the driver with transient response, but if the Oblivion and Citadel amps are able to drive slightly higher demanding speakers and still get good sound, even if at a somewhat lower volume then that widens the speakers as well that can pair well.

No, it is about safety. The handling capability which you mention is not contingent on power, but rather impedance. If your amp's output impedance is too sluggish for a certain speaker, it will "not handle it well". Result will be dimished highs and boomy and "one note" bass; the classic low power SE amp retro sound. (Some like it, preferences may of course vary.)

While Sonic's amps will not reach direct drive 200W SS amp output impedances, they are completely out of the "tube amp output impedance" category. Within volume limits discussed earlier, the amps will provide excellent (in my and many reviewers opinion) control of even a little bit difficult speakers.

But control is not about power per se, if we are outside clipping territory. Loudness IS always about power.

I was interested to see a custom Ultrasonic Studios amp using the 6L6 series because these are some of the absolute highest acclaimed series such as I have experienced myself with my GEC KT66 tubes, and because I currently have and building a solid collection of top-tier tubes of this class for use with my upcoming Glenn OT SET amp. I would like to buy one of these amps also but funds permitting.

I see. You didn't comment on my tech posts about tube selection, but I assume you read them and understood them. Feel free to ask any questions or clarifications I'm happy to elaborate.

Are you not worried about having significantly higher distortion with 6L6 tubes? This will as a matter of fact provide you with less transparency, less atmosphere and 3D imaging, less clarity and separation between voices etc etc. The amp will still be a GOOD AMP, but why not get it as even better?

You have a stash of 6L6 eqs, okay, but think about this: you can get a HUGE stash of EL81's or EL36 eqs very very cheap. Then you'd have a huge stash of those as well.

Or is it about the social aspect? You mention 'acclaim'.

Tubes are just components. They are inherently, well, nothing. They only become 'something' when put into a circuit.

What they become is as much (or sometimes more) contingent on what the circuit is, than what the tube is.

The whole is always the tube in a circuit, the tube in itself is not "good sounding". Now if you only use similar circuits, say the retro classic circuits, then yes, the circuits are similar enough to each other that the tube's "inherent properties" in themselves might stand out.

But understand that this circuit is fundamentally pretty much completely different than the retro circuits. So the 'acclaim' collected from those retro circuits doesn't carry over there, in terms of actual performance ability.

Not that acclaim has much to do with performance ability anyway.

I'm not trying to be provocative here, just to bring new perspectives to think. Ask yourself, what is the purpose of your hobby? There is no right answer here, only your own answer.

For me, it's transparent sound, for maximal realism and liveliness of sound, to enjoy music I like. Whatever components achieve this, I will use.

RE cables: though I don't want to start a cable discussion, myself and a good cross section of users across all of Head-Fi have noticed first-hand how different conductors color the sound differently.

Oh I've experienced it myself. With guitar amps.

Guitar amps are not very much dissimilar to the oldies goldies classic retro circuits. From a modern technical perspective they have lots of problems, one of which is too much reliance on component quality.

My personal opinion which I am ready to explain if anybody is interested: if a circuit is too reliant on a single component (tube curves excluded), it is not a very good circuit.

It's like a house of cards. Move one card a bit and it all comes down.

This circuit is not like that. It will not come down (as in experience sound quality lowering) if you use "regular" wire. It is not reliant on the wire's properties. They will not have any effect.
 
Feb 9, 2020 at 3:02 PM Post #563 of 7,484
Sonic your drill has a display. You're not at the CNC level yet, but you're definitely pretty close.

My drill has a handle and a cord. No display!
Haha yeah! It's a step above the hand drill at least! The first few amps I built I only had a hand drill so this is much better. If I had the space I'd probably save up for a CNC though.
 
Feb 9, 2020 at 3:33 PM Post #565 of 7,484
Decent curves, to my eyes very pretty envelopes. Availability is a bit concerning though. EL11 has a µ of about 20, hopefully that's enough.

I wasn't serious when I said that I will use the EL11 and EL12 spez tubes but you reckon they have decent curves? I have 3 pairs that are NOS. 2 pairs Telefunken and 1 pair Telsa. Many pairs of NOS Telefunken and Siemens EL11s. I also have a pair of Tung Sol 12SL7gt black round plates NOS.

I think a Citadel of TS 12SL7GT and Telefunken EL12 spez will be beautiful. :)

Using a similar layout to this...
Tung Sol 6SL7 sonic build.jpg
 
Feb 9, 2020 at 3:55 PM Post #566 of 7,484
I wasn't serious when I said that I will use the EL11 and EL12 spez tubes but you reckon they have decent curves? I have 3 pairs that are NOS. 2 pairs Telefunken and 1 pair Telsa. Many pairs of NOS Telefunken and Siemens EL11s. I also have a pair of Tung Sol 12SL7gt black round plates NOS.

I think a Citadel of TS 12SL7GT and Telefunken EL12 spez will be beautiful. :)

Using a similar layout to this...
Tung Sol 6SL7 sonic build.jpg
Wait until you see @joseph69 amp. 6P7S tubes are also beautiful =) The thing is that the tubes needs to be quiet in this circuit, very important.

I've built a version of Citadel with 5998's at the output for example. 5998 are very linear tubes and it did sound great but it was very noisy. Another example is the C3G. I used those at the input in a SE version of this amp. Again sounded great but noisy. Maybe the EL12 spez's are quiet in this circuit, who knows?
 
Feb 9, 2020 at 9:04 PM Post #567 of 7,484
SonicTrance +1 vote for trying the EL12 Spez. For me these have for years mainstay of absolute purity and although I have not measured them, they really strike me as very very low Distortion. And I have yet to see one person who has not liked them, either as drivers or powers. They're really something special a very clean, dynamic and life like organic sound that I've literally not heard after rolling arpund 50 other types of tubes. The only thing is that at least, when they were not properly implemented, being used on the Feliks Audio amps, there were somewhat on the lean and bright side, but that's said to be only because they weren't done at proper operating points. And I have two really good pairs of these as well. This couldn't be something for mass production though, because supplies are running a little bit low.
 
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Feb 9, 2020 at 11:46 PM Post #568 of 7,484
Wait until you see @joseph69 amp. 6P7S tubes are also beautiful =) The thing is that the tubes needs to be quiet in this circuit, very important.

I've built a version of Citadel with 5998's at the output for example. 5998 are very linear tubes and it did sound great but it was very noisy. Another example is the C3G. I used those at the input in a SE version of this amp. Again sounded great but noisy. Maybe the EL12 spez's are quiet in this circuit, who knows?

You're right, it has to be quiet. That's what I like about Oblivion besides the sound. Dead quiet. :) Quad 6P7S for US$16.50. That's a no-brainer.

Brought the Axis LS28 bookshelf speakers to Canberra so I can roll speakers ... haha. This has more bass !

How's this for picture quality from the iPhone 11 Pro Max? Unedited. :)

IMG_0002.jpg
 
Feb 10, 2020 at 8:08 AM Post #569 of 7,484
I wasn't serious when I said that I will use the EL11 and EL12 spez tubes but you reckon they have decent curves?

Yes they have decent curves, they'll probably do pretty well. Sims (with all the caveats that sims have) seem to indicate EL12 is almost as good as EL81 and EL36 in this circuit. In real life it could be indistinguishable, or then again not.

I would not recommend doing a 'workhorse' amp with those tubes though. I've dealt with old stock US and European tubes quite a lot, and while many are sold as "NOS" or "tests 100%" or whatever, the lifespan they have left could be anything from 1 week to 10 years. I would not deal with that risk on an amp I use every day.

Wait until you see @joseph69 amp. 6P7S tubes are also beautiful =) The thing is that the tubes needs to be quiet in this circuit, very important.

I've built a version of Citadel with 5998's at the output for example. 5998 are very linear tubes and it did sound great but it was very noisy. Another example is the C3G. I used those at the input in a SE version of this amp. Again sounded great but noisy. Maybe the EL12 spez's are quiet in this circuit, who knows?

Indeed. In my opinion the most tragic tube like this is the 6E5P. It's supremely linear, yet it oscillates to literally high heavens (it's an satellite communications tube by design) even before you turn the power on.

I've done I think like 3 or 4 very frustrating troubleshooting rounds with my 6E5P workhorse and the background is decent, but not pitch black by any means.

I haven't tried ferrites yet. That could be the workaround maybe. Anyway there are plenty of tubes that are nice to work with and provide first class results so just go with those.
 

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