[cel4145]

Here you go, guys. Here's someone that wants to learn over in the intro/recommendations forum. Go help him out

I have a good hearing (also due to my age, but generally I checked it quite a few times) and I always tested those smartphones and players well, in silent room (those players I've tested in isolated studio room of the dealership used for testing gear), also tested them with fairly easy to use headphones but pretty high end, like Sennheiser IE80 I own, NAD Viso HP50 and several other, usually ~300-400$ price range.

I was just wondering... are people hallucinating or something.. I've heard several players including AK100, AK120, X3, X5, all iPod classics, quite a lot smartphones etc... differences were miserable and between many players there even wasn't any differences in sound to me. Do people lie so much or what? I read reviews some people saying about how imaging, perception of something, depth, separation bla bla is good with certain player... what? Do they lie because they got review unit for free so they have to say nice things? 

 

[arnyk]

  Oh, I've already done that, and implemented it in both Labview and MATLAB, even placed it into a DAQ and FPGA for simulation and testing, but I've never actually seen how the coefficients get implemented into an actual (for example) RLC circuit.

 
The parameters that get implements into a LRC circuit are of course the ones for an analog filter.  Engineers implemented with standard parts, usually on a prototyping bread board and measured the results with standard test equipment.
 
I lied like that most of my life!
'
If that is what you want to do, what is stopping you?

 

[maverickronin]

   
Just checked it with foobar:
 
With ASIO drivers impossible to listen (with 32 samples buffer, lots of stuttering with hyper threading on, none with it off...)
 
With WDM drivers (with and without VAC) no difference.
 
Today I've learned something thanks to you... have to change it in my desktop, hope it will solve my MIDI recording issues with latency, not much but a bit troublesome, sometimes...

 
Sounds similar to the problems I've had.  I'll have to test that again sometime.

 

[dazzerfong]

   
The parameters that get implements into a LRC circuit are of course the ones for an analog filter.  Engineers implemented with standard parts, usually on a prototyping bread board and measured the results with standard test equipment.

Fair enough: I was hoping for a more direct connection, but I guess it's just trial and error in the end. That being said, actually calculating the coefficients takes AGES, and if I have a higher-order filter, the number of coefficients..............but MATLAB makes it easy. Use the butter function with type, normalised frequency, bandstop/pass and filter to realise it.

 

[arnyk]

  Fair enough: I was hoping for a more direct connection, but I guess it's just trial and error in the end. That being said, actually calculating the coefficients takes AGES, and if I have a higher-order filter, the number of coefficients..............but MATLAB makes it easy. Use the butter function with type, normalised frequency, bandstop/pass and filter to realise it.

 
Setting the analog circuit in a software circuit simulator such as Spice and its descendents can be a good prologue to actually building a test circuit.

 

[sonitus mirus]

   
I imagine that if you know that if you actually look up the meaning of the words, the High End Audio Industry have probably badly missapplied the words objectivist and subjectiivist.
 
I made this point in my 2005 debate with John Atkinson, but it seems to have flown over many heads.

 
Is the PowerPoint presentation still available? 

 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyaWMpnhusA  

 

[anetode]

Salvage time?
 
Quote:

   
I imagine that if you know that if you actually look up the meaning of the words, the High End Audio Industry have probably badly missapplied the words objectivist and subjectiivist.
 
I made this point in my 2005 debate with John Atkinson, but it seems to have flown over many heads.

 
I agree that the subjectivist/objectivist label is a false dichotomy. John Atkinson is certainly smart enough to realise that, but he has a job and that job comes with expectations. It's kind of sad that the appreciation of controlled testing must divide the audiophile community so that some businesses may prosper.
 
With head-fi there's at least the possibility of less pretense. There's a thriving network of headphone modders and enthusiasts who do comparative measurements, not to mention the obvious intersection with people generally well versed in digital audio. Unfortunately the approach which was chosen was to compartmentalize portions of the hobby, thereby limiting educational opportunities much to the disservice of many newcomers. It's obvious that the way forward is not to repeat the same few patterns of argument but to have more indexed references, as with the Testing Myths thread or Bigshot's thread about experimentally established thresholds. That clears the way for interesting science content which could be unique to head-fi, e.g. the discussion of HRTFs, the role of interaural delay and so forth.

 

[knucklehead]

  Sorry, but Joe doesn't have permission to quote me, let alone try and post what he think I said out of context. What he posted about what I said is inaccurate and incomplete and I've edited the post to remove the contents.  Sorry Joe, but what you did was completely inappropriate. 

In other words, his subjective impression of what he heard is inherently flawed, and not really worth reporting without controls ...
 
Welcome to the science forum!   

 

 

[Joe Bloggs]

Lol

No really, I shouldn't have posted what I posted without discussing with Currawong first so here's a public apology.

That I'd mulled over it for two hours and probably wouldn't have slept a wink last night if I didn't post something doesn't really excuse me :rolleyes:

 

[Exacoustatowner]

What were the life experiences? Just curious.

Also, guilty as charged, some do mock others at the insanity of some purchase decisions. But a lot of the people on this forum, want to educate others on what is sensible or not when it comes to purchasing decisions. 

There are many individuals on this forum that I have come across that spend amounts of money on suspect gear at the expense of their livelihoods. In my eyes, that doesn't constitute 'oh it's just a hobby so leave them be.'

I have a hard time being silent when someone is being steered towards a POWER cord that costs several times the cost of their system. "don't bother with an EQ or better Headphones until you buy BrandX Superconducting Liquid Nitrogen Sheathed Power Cords!" That said I don't insult the person- but state my skepticism. I also recommend a UPS power conditioner if they have issues attributable to power lines. I might suggest contacting the power company as such might be a fire hazard

 

[analogsurviver]

I have a hard time being silent when someone is being steered towards a POWER cord that costs several times the cost of their system. "don't bother with an EQ or better Headphones until you buy BrandX Superconducting Liquid Nitrogen Sheathed Power Cords!"

I can understand that - and I agree.. But why, per default and as a principle, even reasonably priced cables ( like $ 30ish for RCA interconnect ) get so fiercely opposed by the objectivist camp ?
 
Make no mistake, I will ALWAYS put better transducers and better electronics in front of the cables (except in those cases where they really are make or break in actually measured and audible differences, such as phono cartridges and electrostatic headphones ) - but I do hear an improvement of "something reasonable" vs zip cord.

 

[Exacoustatowner]

I can understand that - and I agree.. But why, per default and as a principle, even reasonably priced cables ( like $ 30ish for RCA interconnect ) get so fiercely opposed by the objectivist camp ?

Make no mistake, I will ALWAYS put better transducers and better electronics in front of the cables (except in those cases where they really are make or break in actually measured and audible differences, such as phono cartridges and electrostatic headphones ) - but I do hear an improvement of "something reasonable" vs zip cord.

I can't prove you don't hear a difference- and ultimately it's about enjoyment anyway.
I'm a working scientist of many years experience and I can't show measurements proving that ENJOY my hybrid Tube/SS amp far more than my SS amps- with certain old tubes. People will point out that the dual triode electrical characteristics are set by the tube type such that any 6922 SHOULD sound the same unless it's faulty. And yet they don't to my ears or many other's ears.
I've a fabulous Rane DEQ60L EQ that can't compensate for poor sounding tubes.
I am not offended if someone tells me I'm wrong it does not affect my enjoyment
I'm hoping some Sage may know what outside of the nominal performance characteristics of plate voltage, transconductance, etc might make such an apparent difference in what I hear.
I can't imagine the new 6922 tubes are ALL out of spec. Pretty unlikely! Yet they don't "sound" as good.
I need measurements dang it!!

 

[analogsurviver]

I can't prove you don't hear a difference- and ultimately it's about enjoyment anyway.
I'm a working scientist of many years experience and I can't show measurements proving that ENJOY my hybrid Tube/SS amp far more than my SS amps- with certain old tubes. People will point out that the dual triode electrical characteristics are set by the tube type such that any 6922 SHOULD sound the same unless it's faulty. And yet they don't to my ears or many other's ears.
I've a fabulous Rane DEQ60L EQ that can't compensate for poor sounding tubes.
I am not offended if someone tells me I'm wrong it does not affect my enjoyment
I'm hoping some Sage may know what outside of the nominal performance characteristics of plate voltage, transconductance, etc might make such an apparent difference in what I hear.
I can't imagine the new 6922 tubes are ALL out of spec. Pretty unlikely! Yet they don't "sound" as good.
I need measurements dang it!!

Fair enough answer 

.
 
Regarding tubes - try to check them for the microphonics. They might be electrically in order - but picking back structural or airborne feedback trough microphonics. They can be markedly different manufacturer to manufacturer, even batch to batch. That is why I tend to avoid tubes unless absolutely indespensable (high voltage diret drive elecrtrostatic amps).

 

[castleofargh]

  He's pretty knowledgeable when it comes to discussions on power, current etc - but has his own beliefs on audibility of things like audio formats. But what resonated with me was that he no longer participated in SS and in fact makes it known that he believes some of the discussion here borders on the ridiculous.  Why should an EE (a guy who deals with facts and figures) feel that way - simply because he saw so many discussions end up with name calling and snide remarks on both sides.
 
I won't go into it further though - as he's been very helpful to me in the past with understanding some of the math behind power requirements. Best leave it be, and see if we can all contribute to actually exploring and finding answers. 

 the EE guy thinks sound science is science fiction, and what are his thoughts about the rest of headfi? do we get closer to reality in the rest of the forum?

 
I guess we all wish for SS to change into something that would actually deserve to have science in its title. I certainly would love it. 
but if the EE guys knowing stuff don't come to explain and tell when we're wrong. and the staff of headfi doesn't do anything to make a change outside of saying "be nice kids" as if that had ever worked in the history of humanity. then who's going to do the change?
me with my "I opened a book, once, long ago" kind of knowledge?
FFbookmark who decided that his mind construct of the world was the only real world and that we're all fools for not dreaming his dreams?
analogsurviver who turns his highly challenged hypothesis that ultrasounds matter in music, into an axiom to discuss most formats, supports, filters...?
the noname guy that comes once in a while saying something because his grandfather told him, but never checked and never will?
 
we all see that we have a little problem here.
pretending like we want change but doing nothing about it, that's not going to help much. only those with power and those with knowledge can do it.
a few well minded guys keep wasting their time with us trying to help and answer our questions. but it's not like I see all AES members posting in sound science. we have to make do with what's more likely to be closer to 10 guys with actual advanced knowledge on a topic, and I'm grateful for them being here everyday. but they sure could use some help.
the guys who don't try to help have no right to critic. that's why I reacted TBH. I have nothing against you, I hope you that, you're one of the very few guys I still enjoy reading. and I don't actually have anything against that EE guy whoever he is. it just rubbed me the wrong way a little ^_^.
 
and as for power taking action, at first glance it looks like we all really want the same thing here. more science, less pitiful fights. but "if" the staff of headfi really wants it too, they certainly go at it in a very puzzling way.
 
host: today we have a professor working on viruses and one of the developers of the tri therapy to treat HIV. also with us tonight, some guy randomly picked out at a grocery store. so let's start, prof can we get AIDS from shaking hands with a sick patient?
 
prof: you won't become HIV positive by shaking the hand of a guy who is, just avoid blood contact if he gets cut, and avoid unprotected sex, that way you'll be fine.
prof: we have had a great many number of couple followed over the years with one person being sick, and as long as they were careful the other person never contracted it. we now have enough data to be confident about it.
 
grocery guy: well I know a guy who got aids from staying next to a sick person on a plane.
 
prof: that's not true, it just doesn't work that way
 
grocery guy: yeah well prove me wrong, I know what I know and it happened.
 
...same stuff going back and forth 20times ...
 
prof: no it didn't, stop saying stupid stuff. can someone please take that guy off the cameras before we end with a witch hunt on the streets?
 
host: and we have to make a short pause while prof is being kicked out of the building, we'll come back soon with grocery guy talking some more about aids. as we certainly can't allow disrespect.
 
 
 
and that's moderation in sound science in a nutshell. full enforcement of the law, zero shiit given to context and truth. so I have a pretty clear opinion about how to improve sound science... yeah I do.

 

[castleofargh]

 

This (and a dozen variations for headphone and speaker listening alike) works on any and all audio going through my PC, with ASIO-level latency, with the help of Virtual Audio Cable and ASIO4All: (the VST Host itself being VSTHost)

For mobile I have Viper4Android processing all audio too.

 
I've never been able to get acceptable latency out of VAC rerouting hacks.  IME it's actually faster to output from one DAC, run it to the ADC on my Scarlett2i2, through the VST hosting application, and back out the DAC on my 2i2.  Even then it's only fast enough for streaming audio or slow paced gaming.
 
Then again I'm super picky about latency.  I used to make anime music videos and would time effect down a single frame.  I use my own AMVs as acid tests for latency.
 
As for android, I think they make terrible DAPs since they're all touch screen.  I'll probably be sticking with my Rockboxed Clip Zip for a while.

for sound I have to say I never payed attention, I already have a larger than usual buffer for a long list of DSPs in foobar, so I get a delay anyway and got used to it somehow.
for movies I also never go where I wished with VAC. I seem to remember that when I managed to use KS for the repeater(somehow it wasn't always possible, or I'm just too much of a noob^_^), then I ended up with less latency before stuttering or other kinds of problems. but MME is so much more easy to use with everything :'(
 
for games I just gave up completely I only had troubles and even the best case scenarios were still a problem for FPS.
it's too bad because apart from the latency, we can do some pretty cool stuff thanks to that software.