Objectivists board room

[Raketen]

"Never let poets lie to you... (but sometimes it's ok)" ~Björk (poet)

 

[Ruben123]

So this thread has died a bit hasn't it

As I'm in the market for a new DAP (maybe not) and a cheap neutral IEM (or maybe not either), i noticed that very many reviews are of items given by certain (web)shops in exchange for a review. Any idea if the items are given for free, or do the reviewers have to send them back after? Otherwise I really question the value of many reviews... Could explain the ongoing "hype train" a little. Talking about the hype train, what is it that people keep buying and buying stuff they don't need in order to arrive at audio Walhalla. At which they don't arrive and therefore buy the next and next and so on headphone or whatever.

 

[gregorio]

Any idea if the items are given for free, or do the reviewers have to send them back after?

It very much depends on the “influence” of the reviewer and the item in question. A newer reviewer with few followers would probably have to return the item, especially if it’s a more expensive item. At the other end of the spectrum, a long time, very influential reviewer would get to keep many/most items and in addition will often receive a fee, although typically indirectly in the form of advertising revenue.

Talking about the hype train, what is it that people keep buying and buying stuff they don't need in order to arrive at audio Walhalla. At which they don't arrive and therefore buy the next and next and so on headphone or whatever.

In a single word answer: “Marketing”! That of course is what marketing is supposed to do and why it exists. This answer is largely dismissed by the audiophile community though, because few seem to appreciate the sophistication of marketing and fewer still want to entertain the notion that they’re gullible and have been/are being suckered. Nevertheless, that single word answer is surprisingly accurate and comprehensive.

A more detailed accurate answer involves not only how we hear but also how and what we perceive. Unfortunately, the vast majority of audiophiles won’t accept this more detailed accurate answer because not only does it take considerable effort to understand, as it’s quite complex, but some/much of it is counterintuitive and therefore implausible if not understood. So it’s a triple whammy; not only is it far more satisfying to believe they’re not gullible but it’s also far easier to just believe/trust their hearing and perception, and on top of that, it’s also far more intuitive and plausible. The only potential problem with this approach (apart from it being incorrect of course) is that they have to put up with the consequences of marketing (such as upgradeitis), as well as ignoring and/or dismissing whatever disagrees it: Measurements, DBTs and whole swathes of science (which they’re largely unaware of anyway), which sets up a whole bunch of fundamental contradictions and logical “cul de sacs”.

Regardless, this more detailed accurate answer not only answers the question of why does “upgradeitis” exist but also the question of how and why does marketing work, because although they might not appear to be, they’re essentially the same question. Hence why “marketing” is such an accurate answer!

G

 

[bigshot]

The way it works is the company gives the reviewer something for free in exchange for a review. They don't outright demand a good review, it's just expected that if the reviewer doesn't like it, he won't publish his opinion on it. If a reviewer does post a negative review, that company will never send him anything for free again. Reviewers want free stuff so they play the game. All reviews are good.

If the company sends something free to a competing reviewer without sending one to our reviewer too, our reviewer is free to trash the item out of spite. Because after all, they didn't send him one free this time, they probably won't next time either. Stick it to them.

This isn't just audio components. It's every single item up for review at YouTube, from nonstick pans to camera equipment.

 

[The Jester]

Advertising vs marketing, initially advertising was supposed to be about what something is, what it does, and how well it does it, marketing is now an industry in itself using everything including psychological techniques to unduly influence as well as “bending” the truth to suit their aims …
Bad enough when it was the early days of specialist magazines but now we have the internet, anyone can upload a video as well as various sites catering for various interests, and the increasing trend of buying online ….
Want a DAP ? … have a look at the relevant forum section here and pick out a few that are generally well liked …. And then go somewhere you can listen to them, once you’ve got the DAP that you like then go and listen to various IEM’s …. It’s worth the effort involved …even ask friends to listen to their choices, not their recommendations based on the “latest and greatest“ ..
Ironic that a sound science section even exists to give a balanced opinion, after all if there was no marketing and revenue from advertising this and other forums wouldn’t even be here.
Regular major events showcasing the “latest and greatest” is a start but internet forums are a poor substitute for the old “record club” style meetings where enthusiasts got together to chat about things …
I know cars are a poor analogy but would you choose a car from its specs and a shiny brochure without actually driving it first ?

 

[Ruben123]

Interesting read. This is exactly what I'm afraid of. The world wide web has become one big marketing bureau. Fair information is increasingly hard to find. Besides, when a reviewer seems to have a fair opinion (not cash based), in the next forum he might advocate the use of cable A over B. I've even seem people describing sound differences between SD cards (I kid you not, have a look at the Tera Player thread). Trying out gear myself is not really possible with the budget I had in mind (there seems to be a nice, neutral IEM at $20 and a DAP piced around $35 - both from China, good luck returning them). After all I have to say though, my most used gear I have bought after seeing it on Headfi: The mighty Sansa Clip+ (now driving a pair of HD598), Galaxy S (1, the first from 2010 with custom firmware) and cheap but very good IEMs. So there is a lot to thank for too, although it seems after I've been away since 2017 or so, many more reviews are being paid than back then.




And here my beloved though heavily used budget set, the Sansa has a new jack soldered on and the Monoprices 8320 ($7) has had better times too.

 

[Ruben123]

Ive come across some funny thread in the cables' forum. Different USB cables are being compared of hundreds of dollars each and are even burned in... which causes the bass to settle in and the sound stage to widen. People using "grounding boxes to filter the electricity". Unfortunately it causes too much brightness... https://www.head-fi.org/threads/diy-ground-box-thread.968372/page-23#post-17683021
If Im not allowed to talk like this of other threads/members please let me know.

 

[gregorio]

Ive come across some funny thread in the cables' forum. Different USB cables are being compared of hundreds of dollars each and are even burned in... which causes the bass to settle in and the sound stage to widen. People using "grounding boxes to filter the electricity". Unfortunately it causes too much brightness... https://www.head-fi.org/threads/diy-ground-box-thread.968372/page-23#post-17683021
If Im not allowed to talk like this of other threads/members please let me know.

You should be OK talking about that in this subforum. Yes, the Cables forum is pretty hilarious. Burning in USB cables and bass and sound stage differences when USB cables don’t even carry any bass or soundstage (or in fact anything below the MegaHertz range). The “grounding box” thread is arguably even more crazy because some of the posts/suggestions are potentially dangerous, might even kill a child given certain fault conditions and head-fi *might* find itself in trouble if such a thing actually happens and head-fi has actively allowed the dissemination of such potentially dangerous info/advice. They’re more interested in supporting audiophile myths and the marketing revenue it generates than in the actual facts, even if that results in injury or death! This is proven by the fact that my posts to that thread were deleted and I was permanently banned from posting to it again.

G

 

[Ruben123]

Happy new year.

Even placing 3M feet for lifting the grounding boxes from the ground enhances sound stage and clarity to 'unbelievable levels'. You would really wonder if it is possible to reach the end of the line, where no more enhancements are possible. I don't think there is. In this (well, theirs) hobby, spending big $$ on snake oil is part of the fun and very certainly placebo effect is watching also. One would wonder what their wives think.

 

[bfreedma]

You should be OK talking about that in this subforum. Yes, the Cables forum is pretty hilarious. Burning in USB cables and bass and sound stage differences when USB cables don’t even carry any bass or soundstage (or in fact anything below the MegaHertz range). The “grounding box” thread is arguably even more crazy because some of the posts/suggestions are potentially dangerous, might even kill a child given certain fault conditions and head-fi *might* find itself in trouble if such a thing actually happens and head-fi has actively allowed the dissemination of such potentially dangerous info/advice. They’re more interested in supporting audiophile myths and the marketing revenue it generates than in the actual facts, even if that results in injury or death! This is proven by the fact that my posts to that thread were deleted and I was permanently banned from posting to it again.

G

The grounding box thread is unintentionally hilarious. It should be retitled "Announcing to my home insurer that I'm in violation of my policy". If one of those contraptions causes or can be considered a contributing factor to a fire, no payout from the insurer will be forthcoming.

 

[KinGensai]

@Ruben123

Are you still trying to choose an IEM? The market was wild 2 years ago, it's even wilder now with all this new stuff hitting the market. There are some really nice options now in the lower to mid budget ranges.

The QKZ x HBB is my favorite set in the sub 50 range, it's a no frills 1DD IEM at a very reasonable price with a carefully executed balance between the bass and gain region. If you like bass light recordings, that FR response does quite well bringing the bass back up to modern standards. Not exactly the cleanest playback I've heard from IEMs I own, but very hard to beat the price.

If you already chose, what did you pick? I'm curious how people navigate this section of the market because it was quite complicated for me.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

You should be OK talking about that in this subforum. Yes, the Cables forum is pretty hilarious. Burning in USB cables and bass and sound stage differences when USB cables don’t even carry any bass or soundstage (or in fact anything below the MegaHertz range). The “grounding box” thread is arguably even more crazy because some of the posts/suggestions are potentially dangerous, might even kill a child given certain fault conditions and head-fi *might* find itself in trouble if such a thing actually happens and head-fi has actively allowed the dissemination of such potentially dangerous info/advice. They’re more interested in supporting audiophile myths and the marketing revenue it generates than in the actual facts, even if that results in injury or death! This is proven by the fact that my posts to that thread were deleted and I was permanently banned from posting to it again.

G

can you point to the more egregious examples of this? I feel like trying to do something about it...

 

[gregorio]

can you point to the more egregious examples of this? I feel like trying to do something about it...

I can’t directly provide “quotes” because I’m banned from the thread and, I’ve only re-looked at the first couple of pages but it would be good if someone “does something about it“, and doesn’t get their posts deleted!!

This sounds potentially dodgy to me “So far I've got four of his custom mid-size grounding boxes around 12 lbs each which are connected to my DAC, external clock, Schiit Wyrd USB enhancer, and one to my central AC power conditioner via iFi AC iPurifier (which connects to its banana plug and usees a safe circuitry with surge protection), Along with one older pre-made box connected to my amp with bare wire on the ground input port.” - Post #19. You should never mess with the ground of an amp IMO, unless you know the topology and are suitably qualified.

Quite a few like this, where it’s not entirely clear what ground they’re effectively isolating: “probably not worth trying but a seperated grounded case (case grounded to ac ground while line level ground goes inside the box, both isolated from each other) could be the solution or atleast worth a try …” - Post #23.

There seems to be discussion covering several posts on using DIY ground boxes on the main AC output “in the german forums some people builded a "AC Filter" with tourmaline.... each cable gets a copper plate (so phase, neutral and ground) you go in on one side trough the copper plates and out of the other side... you of course stack the plates in such a way that they are isolated from each other with some air in between.... then you put it in a box and fill it with tourmaline....” - Post #57.

G

 

[spittis]

There seems to be discussion covering several posts on using DIY ground boxes on the main AC output “in the german forums some people builded a "AC Filter" with tourmaline.... each cable gets a copper plate (so phase, neutral and ground) you go in on one side trough the copper plates and out of the other side... you of course stack the plates in such a way that they are isolated from each other with some air in between.... then you put it in a box and fill it with tourmaline....” - Post #57.

G

I value my free time and sanity too much to even go near that cable forum, but as an electrical engineer these grounding box posts makes me nauseous.

 

[Ruben123]

@Ruben123

Are you still trying to choose an IEM? The market was wild 2 years ago, it's even wilder now with all this new stuff hitting the market. There are some really nice options now in the lower to mid budget ranges.

The QKZ x HBB is my favorite set in the sub 50 range, it's a no frills 1DD IEM at a very reasonable price with a carefully executed balance between the bass and gain region. If you like bass light recordings, that FR response does quite well bringing the bass back up to modern standards. Not exactly the cleanest playback I've heard from IEMs I own, but very hard to beat the price.

If you already chose, what did you pick? I'm curious how people navigate this section of the market because it was quite complicated for me.

Good day KinGensai
I went first with the 7Hz zero (first edition) which I got for $16. They are so universally praised that I went for one to try. Im also considering the both also universally praised Hifiman RE400 which are $20 now and used to be $100 (at least the last time I was in the market for new phones), and a pair of (used I hope) Koss KSC75 (they're over $30 here so that's little much for 'trying'). I'm not really a sucker for hype trains but these three are being liked for years. Particularly the Koss gets my attention, while I never buy those comparisons against much more expensive headphones, people describe a very likeable forward sound which is completely different from my dark sounding Sennheisers.